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HAP 3
- Thread starter refaae
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You can't. That would be theft, which is a crime. Also, it won't work without a valid registration code.
Go to the Carrier software site and make a purchase.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
Go to the Carrier software site and make a purchase.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
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EnergyProfessional
Mechanical
The same place that gives out free cars, houses, and iPads....
You may be able to talk your Carrier rep into it if you buy enough carrier equipment... but other than that there is no free way that is legal.
You may be able to talk your Carrier rep into it if you buy enough carrier equipment... but other than that there is no free way that is legal.
- Thread starter
- #5
OK refaae, I'm going to assume that you just weren't aware of this stuff.
Here are a couple of pages you should read when you get time, for your education:
IP Info
Action
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
Here are a couple of pages you should read when you get time, for your education:
IP Info
Action
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
CarolinaPE
Mechanical
There are some programs, such as e-quest, that you can get for free.
EnergyProfessional
Mechanical
CarolinaPE said:
True for energy simulation. but if load calculation is needed there isn't really a good free tool.
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Though I truly appreciate Dr. Weig's posts, I will raise my hand to part of Chas' bitterness.
The situation is far away from black and white. Several years ago I purchased HAP, but the next year their distributor wanted to triple yearly maintenance fee though we had fixed conditions agreed.
Instead of filing court case for which I have little time and energy, I complained to their main European office, and they, instead of resolving the issue, decided to send me free extension.
On the other hand I hear about cases where they are giving it for free to those who purchase or specify enough of their products. That is really gray zone. They should be either distribute it for free or sell it under market conditions, or limit it to OEM tool, which sizes their products only.
Of course, in that case HAP would lose much of credibility as "neutral" engineering tool, and that is what they do not want. They want to present it as generic engineering tool, and use it as sales improvement tool at the same time. That is why I am avoiding them more and more.
The situation is far away from black and white. Several years ago I purchased HAP, but the next year their distributor wanted to triple yearly maintenance fee though we had fixed conditions agreed.
Instead of filing court case for which I have little time and energy, I complained to their main European office, and they, instead of resolving the issue, decided to send me free extension.
On the other hand I hear about cases where they are giving it for free to those who purchase or specify enough of their products. That is really gray zone. They should be either distribute it for free or sell it under market conditions, or limit it to OEM tool, which sizes their products only.
Of course, in that case HAP would lose much of credibility as "neutral" engineering tool, and that is what they do not want. They want to present it as generic engineering tool, and use it as sales improvement tool at the same time. That is why I am avoiding them more and more.
Getting free online cpoy for sure is a thift,I agree, but paying 25% of product price every year for nothing is not?
also the formulas whic are the base of the program are not Carrier properties
HAP as a load calculator is not that strong tool or accurate.
Trane, Elite and others have online demos you can get them, try them then you deside to purchase or not, but Carrier don't provide this demo.
also the formulas whic are the base of the program are not Carrier properties
HAP as a load calculator is not that strong tool or accurate.
Trane, Elite and others have online demos you can get them, try them then you deside to purchase or not, but Carrier don't provide this demo.
ChasBean1 and Drazen, I'm right there with you on the premise ![[bigsmile]](/data/assets/smilies/bigsmile.gif "[bigsmile] [bigsmile]")
but not that it's just lawyer BS ![[thumbsdown]](/data/assets/smilies/thumbsdown.gif "[thumbsdown] [thumbsdown]")
. I am a 99 percenter. I've felt that foot on my throat. Look up my rants against the corporate profit machines in other forums here. Search the term "private equity" along with my handle.
Carrier and Trane should both be giving their software away, it's a tool with which to specify their products. If you've sized stuff with HAP, you're aware that it's just a click of the mouse to turn your results into a bill of Carrier product model numbers. Plus, if they ARE giving it away to big important customers but not to small-time consultants like me, they need a comeuppance which I'd be happy to provide. I had to pay for it. The big mechanical contractor or distributor should too.
The part that riles me is a personal rant, with which you are free to disagree. I refuse to take or share copies of software, music, movies, e-books, or anything else that is copyrighted and made for sale by its creator, even if it's lining the pockets of rich folks who would eliminate my job in order to pay the note on their yachts. My conscience would ache. By the way, those weren't lawyer BS things I linked, they're law-of-the-land links.
I have a family member who has been burned by copying-n-sharing, but he isn't the violator. His own creation is showing up on free download web sites, and he toiled for years to produce it. That's partly where my current bitterness comes from.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
but not that it's just lawyer BS . I am a 99 percenter. I've felt that foot on my throat. Look up my rants against the corporate profit machines in other forums here. Search the term "private equity" along with my handle.Carrier and Trane should both be giving their software away, it's a tool with which to specify their products. If you've sized stuff with HAP, you're aware that it's just a click of the mouse to turn your results into a bill of Carrier product model numbers. Plus, if they ARE giving it away to big important customers but not to small-time consultants like me, they need a comeuppance which I'd be happy to provide. I had to pay for it. The big mechanical contractor or distributor should too.
The part that riles me is a personal rant, with which you are free to disagree. I refuse to take or share copies of software, music, movies, e-books, or anything else that is copyrighted and made for sale by its creator, even if it's lining the pockets of rich folks who would eliminate my job in order to pay the note on their yachts. My conscience would ache. By the way, those weren't lawyer BS things I linked, they're law-of-the-land links.
I have a family member who has been burned by copying-n-sharing, but he isn't the violator. His own creation is showing up on free download web sites, and he toiled for years to produce it. That's partly where my current bitterness comes from.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
EnergyProfessional
Mechanical
Drazen/DRweig: I'm not sure how it works with HAP, but for Trane Trace I'm not under the impression they push Trane products. The software gives me a load that could be met by any manufacturer's products. For the energy simulation it has Standard ASHRAE 90.1 etc. equipment and you also can simulate specific models of any manufacturer (obviously they need to provide unload curves, ambient relief etc. of their equipment). sure the performance may be based on Trane products if they have a product in that category. But what else should they do? Go and ask Carrier to give them information? 
For example I recently simulated a Mitsubishi VRF system and Mitsu has the detailed Trace instructions on their website. Maybe I'm ignorant, but even if I wanted to pick a Trane model out of the load calculation I wouldn't know how to do that.
I don't know if HAP is more carrier-friendly, but for Trace there is nothing that makes the designer chose a trane product over some other product. I think they have a free add-on to pick Trane equipment, but I'm not sure this works well, and it is not something you have to use, it isn't part of Trace itself.
As far as cost goes, if you think they rip you off: why don't you just make and sell your own software if it is that easy to make the big bucks?![[afro2]](/data/assets/smilies/afro2.gif "[afro2] [afro2]")
I heard HAP is a bit cheaper, but Trace cost $2000 for the first license and $500 annually after that. Second license is half that. But for the subscription you also get qualified phone support, you can send in your files to have them help you etc. I think the Load part only cost $700 if you don't want to do energy simulations, i assume subscription then would be 25% of that as well. for less than $200 yo get unlimited qualified phone support and can have them review your actual file... I call that a bargain.
I don't know if either HAP or Trane give away free licenses to good costumers. But this is quite normal that when you do millions of $ business with someone they give you some freebies. Didn't you get a free coffee when you had your last oil change?
For example I recently simulated a Mitsubishi VRF system and Mitsu has the detailed Trace instructions on their website. Maybe I'm ignorant, but even if I wanted to pick a Trane model out of the load calculation I wouldn't know how to do that. I don't know if HAP is more carrier-friendly, but for Trace there is nothing that makes the designer chose a trane product over some other product. I think they have a free add-on to pick Trane equipment, but I'm not sure this works well, and it is not something you have to use, it isn't part of Trace itself.
As far as cost goes, if you think they rip you off: why don't you just make and sell your own software if it is that easy to make the big bucks?
I heard HAP is a bit cheaper, but Trace cost $2000 for the first license and $500 annually after that. Second license is half that. But for the subscription you also get qualified phone support, you can send in your files to have them help you etc. I think the Load part only cost $700 if you don't want to do energy simulations, i assume subscription then would be 25% of that as well. for less than $200 yo get unlimited qualified phone support and can have them review your actual file... I call that a bargain.
I don't know if either HAP or Trane give away free licenses to good costumers. But this is quite normal that when you do millions of $ business with someone they give you some freebies. Didn't you get a free coffee when you had your last oil change?
All good points too, HerrKaLeun. If I could write the ultimate load and energy model, I might consider it. I'm just looking forward to eQuest's next revision for now. I own HAP and pay the fees. I save eQuest for stuff that HAP can't model. HAP is much quicker and worth the price. I also have used Trane Trace in the past. I just find HAP to be a little easier. If HAP works for me on a $50,000 job and it's good thereafter, it's easy to write the check to Carrier.
HAP also generates a load and you can put in your own performance curves. Sure you could then take that info to Trane or York or whoever. Carrier just makes it really easy to spec their equipment once your load is run. And it is an advertisement for their stuff. By the way, HAP is in the $1500 range and around $300 per year thereafter.
I'm not saying it's a rip-off. The difference in freebies is that everybody gets a cup of coffee at the Quickie-Lube, whether they bring in a beat up Ford Escort or a Maserati.![[2thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/2thumbsup.gif "[2thumbsup] [2thumbsup]")
I'm just against people getting it free by theft or by favor when I have to pay for it.
All that said, I think we should move this discussion over to the Engineering Ethics forum. It's not really appropriate for HVAC, except that there's good info on Trace and HAP costs in here now.
I've taken no offense from any of you, and I certainly didn't intend to give offense. It's kind of enjoyable to hash out something when people have different opinions and there are indeed gray areas involved. I like to stir up politics when I go to one of those mandatory after-hours work socials. Gives me an excuse to leave early.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
HAP also generates a load and you can put in your own performance curves. Sure you could then take that info to Trane or York or whoever. Carrier just makes it really easy to spec their equipment once your load is run. And it is an advertisement for their stuff. By the way, HAP is in the $1500 range and around $300 per year thereafter.
I'm not saying it's a rip-off. The difference in freebies is that everybody gets a cup of coffee at the Quickie-Lube, whether they bring in a beat up Ford Escort or a Maserati.
I'm just against people getting it free by theft or by favor when I have to pay for it.All that said, I think we should move this discussion over to the Engineering Ethics forum. It's not really appropriate for HVAC, except that there's good info on Trace and HAP costs in here now.
I've taken no offense from any of you, and I certainly didn't intend to give offense. It's kind of enjoyable to hash out something when people have different opinions and there are indeed gray areas involved. I like to stir up politics when I go to one of those mandatory after-hours work socials. Gives me an excuse to leave early.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
EnergyProfessional
Mechanical
DRWeig: I'd be curious to know what eQuest can simulate that HAP can't. I'm a big Trace fan, also because it can simulate everything into the nth detail. And having load calculation and energy simulation in one software sure saves time.
The only hiccup in Trace is it doesn't have a good wizzard to build the model. but since I use gbXML this isn't a big issue. HAP seems to be better if you don't have gbXML since it seems to be able to manually model the building easier.
I don't think i have the perfect worklfow, but it seems in schematic design I can just use the Revit built-in load and energy simulation just to play around and once the building shape is defined, use Trace. In my view this makes eQuest a bit redundant since you always need a real load software such as Trace or HAP.
I did some graduate school work on energy simulations and the old DoE 2.1 engine really isn't able to handle modern features. It is an old spaghetti code. DoE 2.1/2.2 themselves are free and eQuest is a free front-end. but there are commercial front-ends like EnergyPro that use DoE 2.2. and charge over $3,000 for an outdated inaccurate engine and add their own VRF etc. "estimates". Those are the real ripoff. If you are OK with outdated code, use eQuest... at least it is free. But if you want accuracy, pay for Trace (or HAP even when I can't vouch for that). The best building energy simulation is EnergyPlus, but all the good front-ends cost more than Trace and it doesn't necessarily is good in simulating equipment (which Trace is the leader in).
The tools built into Revit are OK in a sense they are free built in and as you design the building you get updated data. but they are not good enough for actual designing the system, they are good for schematic design at best.
The only hiccup in Trace is it doesn't have a good wizzard to build the model. but since I use gbXML this isn't a big issue. HAP seems to be better if you don't have gbXML since it seems to be able to manually model the building easier.
I don't think i have the perfect worklfow, but it seems in schematic design I can just use the Revit built-in load and energy simulation just to play around and once the building shape is defined, use Trace. In my view this makes eQuest a bit redundant since you always need a real load software such as Trace or HAP.
I did some graduate school work on energy simulations and the old DoE 2.1 engine really isn't able to handle modern features. It is an old spaghetti code. DoE 2.1/2.2 themselves are free and eQuest is a free front-end. but there are commercial front-ends like EnergyPro that use DoE 2.2. and charge over $3,000 for an outdated inaccurate engine and add their own VRF etc. "estimates". Those are the real ripoff. If you are OK with outdated code, use eQuest... at least it is free. But if you want accuracy, pay for Trace (or HAP even when I can't vouch for that). The best building energy simulation is EnergyPlus, but all the good front-ends cost more than Trace and it doesn't necessarily is good in simulating equipment (which Trace is the leader in).
The tools built into Revit are OK in a sense they are free built in and as you design the building you get updated data. but they are not good enough for actual designing the system, they are good for schematic design at best.
Hi again, HerrKaLeun,
I haven't looked at TRACE for quite a while. Perhaps I should! If it can do integrated daylighting control and custom plant loading sequences, that would be super.
HAP's limitations aren't bad for buildings that aren't too complex, but when it's a hospital with really advanced HVAC, lighting controls, process cooling loads (both water and air side), solar thermal, solar photovoltaic, and complex control sequences, it's much easier in eQuest / DOE 2.2. It has a nice but tedious method for custom chiller curves, cooling tower performance, and pumping strategies. VRF workarounds that are acceptable to LEED reviewers are easy to find. I agree that it's old and clunky... Free is a major benefit, though, and my clients have been writing eQuest into their contracts with me so I'm stuck with it.
In HAP, for example, you have a choice of four methods of chiller plant staging. Custom sequences can't be entered, so you really can't take advantage of the latest, greatest variable-speed chillers' performance by keeping loads low. There's no way at all to simulate process chilled water. Free-cooling heat exchangers are just a check-box, although they seem to give similar answers to eQuest.
I would disagree with the accuracy of Trace, HAP, and even EnergyPlus as well. There's no such thing as an accurate program in this genre. Anything a building simulation program spits out is an estimate. As long as it is consistent in comparing one scenario to another, that's fine. I like eQuest's GUI and wizard, but that may be due to my long experience with it. It's a bear for a new user.
eQuest's next update is due soon, and I look forward to it. I'll also be looking closely at Trace. You may anticipate some questions from me soon, I'll be curious to understand the latest Trace capabilities. I would also like to hear more about your concerns with the DOE 2.2 engine. I'm aware of a few shortcomings. since I'm almost always jammed with unreasonable job deadlines, I haven't taken much time to look into critiques.
Thanks for the info!
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
I haven't looked at TRACE for quite a while. Perhaps I should! If it can do integrated daylighting control and custom plant loading sequences, that would be super.
HAP's limitations aren't bad for buildings that aren't too complex, but when it's a hospital with really advanced HVAC, lighting controls, process cooling loads (both water and air side), solar thermal, solar photovoltaic, and complex control sequences, it's much easier in eQuest / DOE 2.2. It has a nice but tedious method for custom chiller curves, cooling tower performance, and pumping strategies. VRF workarounds that are acceptable to LEED reviewers are easy to find. I agree that it's old and clunky... Free is a major benefit, though, and my clients have been writing eQuest into their contracts with me so I'm stuck with it.
In HAP, for example, you have a choice of four methods of chiller plant staging. Custom sequences can't be entered, so you really can't take advantage of the latest, greatest variable-speed chillers' performance by keeping loads low. There's no way at all to simulate process chilled water. Free-cooling heat exchangers are just a check-box, although they seem to give similar answers to eQuest.
I would disagree with the accuracy of Trace, HAP, and even EnergyPlus as well. There's no such thing as an accurate program in this genre. Anything a building simulation program spits out is an estimate. As long as it is consistent in comparing one scenario to another, that's fine. I like eQuest's GUI and wizard, but that may be due to my long experience with it. It's a bear for a new user.
eQuest's next update is due soon, and I look forward to it. I'll also be looking closely at Trace. You may anticipate some questions from me soon, I'll be curious to understand the latest Trace capabilities. I would also like to hear more about your concerns with the DOE 2.2 engine. I'm aware of a few shortcomings. since I'm almost always jammed with unreasonable job deadlines, I haven't taken much time to look into critiques.
Thanks for the info!
Best to you,
Goober Dave
Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
back to the main question
"how can I get HAP full version for free"
there are several ways to get it for free:
- you can get a haked cpoy online or from friends and this is a thift.
- if you are a business owner, you can buy it and it will goes from your tax, in this case you paid for it, but save tax money and your are in balance, means free.
- if you are an employee, ask your bose to buy it then you can use it.
- or wait untill Carrier chage its policy then you might get it for cheaper or free,
"how can I get HAP full version for free"
there are several ways to get it for free:
- you can get a haked cpoy online or from friends and this is a thift.
- if you are a business owner, you can buy it and it will goes from your tax, in this case you paid for it, but save tax money and your are in balance, means free.
- if you are an employee, ask your bose to buy it then you can use it.
- or wait untill Carrier chage its policy then you might get it for cheaper or free,
ProcessHVAC
Mechanical
Although I use HAP, you can definitely use eQuest for loads, it might take a bit longer but if you are decent at CAD (and I am not ) you can put together a good model fairly quick. Results are basically the same.
Good point made by DrWeig
Manufacturers should be giving it away for free
we-the engineers- have contributed a great deal in developing their software, it is us users asking questions and making recommendations on software that got them to where they are.
I can understand that a small fee (say $100.00 or $200.00 with no renewal fees) should be applied, but $4,000 and $1,000 for renewal is highway robbery
I do like the responsiveness of Trane, any time I made a suggestion to their software, they did their best to accommodate in the next update. They do listen.
I am still waiting for their famous "next generation" of Trace where you could plot a psychrometric chart, etc.
Manufacturers should be giving it away for free
we-the engineers- have contributed a great deal in developing their software, it is us users asking questions and making recommendations on software that got them to where they are.
I can understand that a small fee (say $100.00 or $200.00 with no renewal fees) should be applied, but $4,000 and $1,000 for renewal is highway robbery
I do like the responsiveness of Trane, any time I made a suggestion to their software, they did their best to accommodate in the next update. They do listen.
I am still waiting for their famous "next generation" of Trace where you could plot a psychrometric chart, etc.
isubrady
Mechanical
- May 20, 2013
- 2
I am currently using the Hourly Analysis Program 4.5.1 and my supervisor and I are having isses sharing projects that are on our database. I was wondering if there is a way that if he saves the project on his computer on the shared drive that I am able to open it on mine?
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