Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly 22

[mizzjoey]

Hi everyone.

I kind of have an awkward situation right now. Don't know if I actually have a situation or I should just loosen up, in fact.

I'm close to one senior engineer from a previous job; he was very helpful when I was working with him previously and we're both working our postgraduate thesis at the same faculty on part time basis. So now I see him every weekend at the lab for discussion with our two lecturers. And of course we're in the same industry and him being very knowledgeable makes him a useful contact.

I used to be okay with him because he was sort of a big brother to me. He's about 15 yrs my senior, married and I'm on great terms with his lovely wife. But lately he's being a bit too friendly and eventhough I said no to his outing invitations all the time he just doesn't notice that he's making me uncomfortable. I doubt he's being like this on purpose; he's a bit on the geeky and socially-awkward side.

Say you're the senior engineer, how would you like to be gently explained that your junior would like you to stop asking her to hang out on weekends?

At least, I'd like him to stop asking me out for a swim everytime we finish lab... I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing, but he would just say that's because I haven't seen how good he looks in them.

Plus he's been asking me out for a movie lately, and the last time was half an hour ago in an email.

Maybe I should stop being a prude?
jo

 

[Unotec]

Cass, star for you from me too.
Politeness can actually be a much harder hit than rudeness. Much more effective. (and it had to be a woman with the best answer on this, go figure. That's why we men marry; in a futile attempt to improve the species. Which we can only achieve when we have daughters.... if ours at all...)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[BigInch]

Ladies, excellent textbook responses, but if its as bad as you say, do you think he'll really get it?

I'd suggest,

"Look bud, ain't no way in hell this is going anywhere past your overactive imagination, so shut it down .. and now. You with me on this?" <while flashing lazer pointer across his chest>

Wait 3 seconds for a forthcoming "Uh-ha", reprompt as necesary, then break into some heavy shop talk.




**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[tickle]

Great response Cass - well worth a star.

Mizzyjoe

I was wanting to say - Perhaps he has problems and sees you as someone to confide in - but I did not want to come across as a old boar/bore (which I may or not be) by sticking up for the senior.

Also perhaps he has perceived you has having a problem and would like to discuss it.

You would get a warmer reception and be able to continue your relationship if you follow Cass's advice. If it still continues, a few choice four letter words would probably put an end to it all.

 

[casseopeia]

Thanks for all the stars! I wish the instructor in the NVC seminar was as generous with my responses.

Something else I would like to add is that Mr. Senior’s motivation for asking her on various ‘dates’ is unimportant. My response is based on the initial assumption that Mizzjoey would like to remain in a mentor/pupil relationship with this man. If she can get across to him that she does not want a different kind of relationship, without making either one of them feel defensive or coerced, then the relationship is unharmed.

This isn’t just something that comes out of the “How Women Think Men Think” manual. It’s really is about preserving an established relationship. Forget Mr. Senior for a moment. How will Mizzjoey feel if she says something to hurt Mr. Senior? My guess is that she will feel terrible, based on her ambivalence about her own reaction to his requests. She might get him to stop asking her on dates, but she creates tension that will forever cloud their future interaction.

How Mr. Senior thinks isn’t even important. He is obviously trying to fill a need of his own and Mizzjoey is uncomfortable with filling that role. To lose the mentor/pupil relationship would be a true loss for Mizzjoey.

A 'need' in this context is a universal human need that when expressed, is universally accepted. "I need to feel safe" is a universal need.

BTW, I would not do this via email. This should be face-to-face. Go out for coffee after one of the labs and talk to him. And be straight forward about it. Don't expect him to 'pick up' on your discomfort. Tell him "I am uncomfortable." Don't tell him that the thought of seeing him in a Speedo is repulsive. That would be cruel to someone who has been kind to you.



"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[TheTick]

Cass and vpl have the approach that should be right 99% of the time. I do agree with what they say about owning one's feelings.

However, it seems likely Mr. Senior's behavior is more than just awkward. He's got an itch he wants to scratch. A married man who is that persistent in his quest for date-like companionship has not got his head on straight.

Such attachments rarely go down quietly against refusal, even the kindest, most rational refusal. Be prepared, for you may still lose everything, even if you do everything right.

 

[BigInch]

I thought we went through this. No coffee.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[jmw]

Two very valuable contributions from Cass and Pat but I have to concur with BigInch and the Tick (MHO: the "harp seal" solution has greater attraction than teasing him with a laser pointer unless it is an industrial laser for cutting sheet metal and you might want to rethink the suggested target zone).

On the plus side, such situations cause endless amusement for the other workers/colleagues ... unless/until they get caught up in it (as I did once, I was an easier target for HR as not having rhinoceros skin and innocent anyway, they just wanted to make an example of someone).

From various places I used to work:
Situation 1: Meek and mild engineer puts move on attractive receptionist.
Move appreciated.
Wife finds out and built up enough head of steam to come to the factory to raise hell (what her husband thought is not recorded).
She raised hell.
Great entertainment for all others (groundhog event) but R & J had both gone into hiding.
Management not amused.

Situation 2: Lecherous sales engineer (not a sad senior but young and brash, self diagnosed god's gift) puts move on young (attractive) lady office manager.
Move not appreciated.
"When a lady says no she means yes" philosophy at work.
Throughout the following years (yes, years) others variously entertained while also sympathetic but did not appreciate the full extent of the problem created due to the lady trying her best at different times, to be "one of the lads", to accept a bit of "banter", to treat it like a joke, to "not let it get to her" etc. but on occassion it would get too much and "exit stage left, pursued by bear" i.e. flee in tears to the ladies.

She went through the full range of options including as recommended above.

She then got HR involved, for all the good it did because both stopped short of the full penalties offered by the laws on sexual harassment and HR just picked on innocents like me.

He, skin like a rhinoceros carried on unabashed and seemed indifferent to the problems/grief caused. On the odd occasion he caused her to flee to the ladies he thought it a joke.

To her regret his sales figures meant that management vetoed the harp seal solution and kept opting for the "warnings".

Situation resolved when he finally found a new job (one presumes that some other lady in some other company is now going through exactly the same hell).

Of course, when I say resolved I mean that the great white was gone but still plenty of lesser species swimming around.

So, some blokes don't find a problem chasing anything in a skirt no matter how many wives and kiddies at home.
No amount of tears, or HR warnings affects their behaviour and the harp seal approach often not available (some objection to a good clubbing?).

Ultimate solution may be one or the other must leave or insist on full rigour of sexual harassment laws which, dependent on where you are, can have some bite.

Now then, Mizzjoey, if it goes on long enough it will change from being something amusing to something of a nuisance. You will find there is a limit to what you can take.
If you do not want years of this misery, set a time table to solve the problem. Set some gaols.
Be ready to escalate on schedule from slapped wrist to industrial laser and no qualms, no Stockholm syndrome.... be ready to go to the fullest extent of the law. Treat it like a project

It is no good taking each day as it comes because you will keep on putting of the day and just extend your misery.

No second chances, no trying again.
If you take an action that should produce a result with a reasonable person, and it doesn't work, move to the next stage and if that involves penalties, invoke them. Do not be fooled.
If necessary, tell him what you will do and when. Tell him it is up to him and having told him, never ever back down.

With a reasonable person once you have spoken it should be enough. So, ask your self how long you will permit for this to continue till the situation is resolved? a week, a month?

No battered wives syndrome either.... once you press charges, do not drop them.
The consequences are not your concern.
It is his problem and his consequences.
Let's face it, unless he gets his act together his marriage is in trouble anyway and if not you then someone else.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TenPenny]

Just look him in the eye, and say, in a nice, pleasant manner, 'Look, I don't know where you're trying to go with all this, but I'm just not interested. Let's keep our relationship professional.'

 

[graybeach]

For several years, I have this situation with a wonderful engineer who I consider my greatest mentor. He is married and also about 15 years older than me. I just do almost exactly as TenPenny suggested. When I said this the first time the flirtations stopped, but he has needed a couple of boosters over the years.

 

[spongebob007]

Regardless of his intentions, in my opinion at least, a married man asking another woman to a movie is crossing the line.

 

[mizzjoey]

I gave Cassie, vpl and graybeach stars for understanding my situation perfectly! Thanks cass/vpl for your suggestions. Man, I wish I were sent to some communications course similar to yours; then I wouldn't be so scared of telling some people that they're crossing a line. I'm not good at confrontation

Yes, this senior has been a very good mentor and of course, now that we are working together closely in our small group in the faculty I do not wish to create a situation that will affect others as well. I simply want him to stop the requests and continue working together. As of now, I'm simply ignoring his calls, text messages and emails that are not related to lab stuff. I'll go through Cass and vpl's suggestions and see what might work best.

Tickle also got a star for highlighting something I haven't thought of. It's true I'm going through a rough patch with my fiancee and this might have given this senior the idea that he has to cheer me up. That said, I still don't know on which side his intentions lie.

As for TheTick's suggestions that I go for the lecturers... LOL. They're married to each other! :-D

 

[mizzjoey]

Hey cass,

Just an idea, but you might want to write an FAQ on this Non Violent Communication thing. I'm sure there are many 'socially-awkward' engineers out there who will appreciate it, myself included

 

[mauricestoker]

Tell him that that you would go swimming, along with his wife. Go to the movies, along with his wife. A commitment was made before you met, and that was between he and his wife. If he is not interested in fulfilling those commitments, then I would not otherwise trust him. Being socially awkward is one thing, being in a socail situtation with someone of the other sex other than your wife is another.

For those that do not know the difference, a wife (of husband) is not a "significant other"; that apparition could as well apply to your son's date for the middle school dance. I would not trusy anyone that is married to go for a swim, or any person that refers to their marital partner as a "significant other".

 

[apsix]

mauricestoker
The definition of words or phrases in the English language cannot be dictated by one person's perceptions.
Have you also re-defined 'apparition'?

 

[ScottyUK]

Maurice,

Interesting viewpoint. I guess I can add 'untrustworthy' to my already extensive list of other sins. Why? I've a couple of female friends who I've known since we were kids who I still end up in 'social situations' with. I couldn't imagine dating either of them any more than I could imagine dating a sister, but we'll maybe go to see a band we like play (my wife doesn't share all my musical tastes, nor I hers) or perhaps just go for a drink a couple of times a year to catch up. I'm very grateful to have a female friend who I trust completely and who will give me an honest opinion when I ask it. She's probably done as much to hold my marriage together of late as anyone I know, although she likely doesn't realise it. To me that's immensely valuable.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[corus]

As Homer Simpson would suggest, just say two words 'I am gay'.

corus

 

[jmw]

Scotty,
I like to think it is the same with me, that I can have women friends, platonic relationships and that it is OK.

And yet, I remember when Harry met Sally:
Harry Burns to Sally Albright:

You realise we can never be friends.

You can get the rest at:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098635/quotes

I'm left with thinking that I don't understand women and that means that every time I might think I'm being friends with a woman that either
(a) we are friends or
(b) I'm being a nuisance and she is being polite or
(c) she keeps thinking "have I got to draw him a picture?"

Given that no one ever seems to say exactly what they mean, I was toying for a while with the idea that maybe a learning to understand body language at a concious level might help.
So, for example, you have to judge how close they come into your "private space" and the way their feet are pointing and where they look and so on.

Trouble is, when I tried noting these things I discovered that just about every woman I met wanted to have my babies. This means either(
(a) body language interpretation was wrong
(b)women are smarter than I think and they are just messing with me through false body language signals
(c) I have wasted an awful lot of opportunities in my life



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SomptingGuy]

I'm with you on the second (c). Grrr! I really need to speed up work on my time machine.

- Steve

 

[BigInch]

Speed up work on a ... time machine? What's the point?


**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[ivymike]

(c) was confirmed for me by a woman who decided to draw me a picture... and then pointed the intentions of her competition. She never accomplished the goal indicated in the picture, but her competition...