Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly 22

[mizzjoey]

Hi everyone.

I kind of have an awkward situation right now. Don't know if I actually have a situation or I should just loosen up, in fact.

I'm close to one senior engineer from a previous job; he was very helpful when I was working with him previously and we're both working our postgraduate thesis at the same faculty on part time basis. So now I see him every weekend at the lab for discussion with our two lecturers. And of course we're in the same industry and him being very knowledgeable makes him a useful contact.

I used to be okay with him because he was sort of a big brother to me. He's about 15 yrs my senior, married and I'm on great terms with his lovely wife. But lately he's being a bit too friendly and eventhough I said no to his outing invitations all the time he just doesn't notice that he's making me uncomfortable. I doubt he's being like this on purpose; he's a bit on the geeky and socially-awkward side.

Say you're the senior engineer, how would you like to be gently explained that your junior would like you to stop asking her to hang out on weekends?

At least, I'd like him to stop asking me out for a swim everytime we finish lab... I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing, but he would just say that's because I haven't seen how good he looks in them.

Plus he's been asking me out for a movie lately, and the last time was half an hour ago in an email.

Maybe I should stop being a prude?
jo

 

[KENAT]

"let it drop..."

Er, that's what I'd tried to do with my last post.

Missjoey, it sounds like a difficult one. I've known a few people who were OK folks just incredibly socially inept. However, I'm male, they were male and none of us gay so there wasn't the sexual aspect.

I have been a bit dense in relationships at times and prefer someone being honest than dragging it out being subtle etc. trying not to hurt me.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[monkeydog]

KENAT,
That is what I said 1 week ago (but of course you will get the star)
;-)

 

[Unotec]

Mizzjoey, there you go.
Quite a few of us, guys, have said to take the direct approach (not that all of us are chasing skirts at the office, but HEY! we're male after all)
On the contrary, the gals are trying to spare our feelings when it comes to these type of situations. (sorry girls, but seems that we're not as touchy as you think we are.... SMACK!!!... that was my wife... ok, we might be a little touchy in some aspects)
So your call. Guys say go head on, girls say to beat around the bush and, eventually, insinuate that the hare is not there anymore.
Let us know how it turns out!!!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[HgTX]

Direct has worked for me on several occasions. Them as are insensitive enough to create an uncomfortable situation aren't going to respond to subtlety.

I have gotten good results (including a continuing decent relationship with the parties in question) with the following examples:

"Wait, are you asking me on a date?" (yes) "I don't think that's a good idea."

"You bother me. Leave me alone."

"Hell no, I'm not playing pool with you tonight!"

"Sorry, I don't do married guys." (this after an explanation that the wife wouldn't mind)

Everyone survived and very little blood was spilt.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[TheTick]

Men are from Mars, women from Venus. Hg, well, is as Mercurian as they come.

 

[SomptingGuy]

We're just jamming on the old: Engineering men are socially inept nerds; engineering women are [/i]real[/i] women, with brains and other neat stuff. It won't change.

- Steve

 

[mizzjoey]

Well.. what I mean is he is kind-hearted and harmless... but can be an annoyance to some people sometimes because he can be clueless/lacking sophistication. Don't we all?

Seriously, I don't mean to make him sound like a freak. He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy

I was hanging out with my brother last night and my phone rang twice. When I picked up the second time it was his wife calling me saying that her husband is worried something had happened to me since I've been so quiet lately, and would I join them for dinner one weekend?

What do you make of that? I think you guys are right. I'll take the direct approach. It seems like he's just trying to be nice but doesn't know how to do it right.

Phew! Lab day tomorrow. Wish me luck! Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be something else... drama = bad.

Thanks a lot,
jo

 

[Drumchaser]

mizzjoey

don't disengage too early:

Option 1) you should be on high alert during dinner, for subtle hints and innuendo. I think senior mon has gotten his wifey to drink the cool aid.
Translation - you could be encouraging their original scheme.

Option 2) He is using his wife to encourage you to let your guard down.

Option 3) He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy...and all this has been an exercise in futility, not to mention the substantial verbal hostilities spewed all over poor Kenat.

Good Luck

 

[mizzjoey]

I think whatever happened with Kenat and Cass is unfortunate (might be just a misunderstanding over how the sentence came out? But Cass is not around to clarify so we won't know), but it has not been a futile exercise to me.

A lot of your replies (and I thank you for taking the time), especially from the men, made me realize that it might help me to be a bit more direct (and brutal?) when dealing with the males I meet at work. Should be handy for the tens of years I foresee myself being in this business. Love the game, but hate (some of) the players, folks!

 

[jmw]

"I'm on great terms with his lovely wife."

It would seem so because here we have:
"...it was his wife calling me saying that her husband is worried something had happened to me since I've been so quiet lately, and would I join them for dinner one weekend?"

Now tell me folks, what doesn't sound right about that?

I can tell you, if I told my wife I was worried about a younger woman who had been avoiding me, she would instantly opt for the harp seal approach to problem solving.

So now, instead of gradually diminishing your contact or cutting it off completely, a new situation arises and what do you do?





JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SomptingGuy]

The Woody Allen syndrome springs to mind. The wife sees you as a daughter; the husband doesn't.

- Steve

 

[TheTick]

Using cass' approach does not mean you can't or shouldn't be firm.

 

[jmw]

"Seriously, I don't mean to make him sound like a freak. He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy"

As Drumchaser points out, there is some difference between what you say of him and what you say of his actions.

Most probably/evidently you are not the sort of person who easily believe ill of anyone. As a consequence you are but a step away from assuming the responsibility for his actions on yourself and you are not objective enough in appraising the situation.
This is risky.

If he is causing you concerns then he is at fault.
Do not rationalise that away nor assume that you must be responsible somehow or that he "may have misunderstood" your prior attitude toward him.

You need to remain clear and unequivocal about the one thing: his behaviour is unacceptable.

That's it. Nothing else. It is your right to say "No." and have it stick irrespective of anything that may have occurred previously whether intended or misinterpreted.

If you are inclined to believe the best of everyone then you may also be mis-reading his wife.

She should be feeling concerned about her husbands attitude toward you.
Let's face it, if he is really so socially inept that some people can only respond by blocking his emails, can he really be so clever as to conceal his actions or attitudes from his wife? Suppose you assume she knows what he wants, what does that suggest? It suggests to me that sooner or later she is going to blow and her most likely target will be you.

You know, there are some really sick people out in the world and they survive by being really plausible and neighbours and friends will all say they thought them nice quiet people and that they couldn't believe it when they finally ran amok with an AK or used more than rubble for their patio foundations.

It is nice to think that she is the loving doting wife with no idea that her husband is not behaving as he should and that he really is a nice normal mentally sound guy.
Maybe that is all true, it probably is, BUT it is going to end in tears.
Get used to that idea and try and put an end now rather than later.

A question: have you met the wife by herself or always in his company? does he control the situation?


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Dirtguy4587]

This is an akward situation without a doubt. Also a reason why I keep my professional relationships strictly professional.

SomptingGuy - could be that the wife sees her as a daughter, but I had a coworker once, in a very similar situation, however there were no daughter-like intentions. It turned out to be, to quote Seinfeld, an attempted "menage-a-trois" situation. My colleague ended up leaving the company after that scenario was broached. Sounds weird, but I guess it does happen!

 

[KENAT]

Missjoey, I wouldn't worry about an apparant miscomunication between Cass and I, you've got bigger fish to fry;-). Hope the lab goes well and maybe you'll be able to get some resolution.

Monkeydog you got the stars this time not me.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[casseopeia]

Wow! I’m gone for a day and a half at deposition and Mr. Friendly practically has a mob looking for him! And poor KENAT is all buttsore. (I guess I'm going to have to download some Tougue-in-Cheek emoticons)

I’d like to respond by addressing the OP. I’m sure a bunch of bright engineers can fabricate a hypothetical scenario where my suggestions would fail. There is no perfect system. I’d rather deal with the actual situation as presented and make clear perhaps some things that I did not in previous posts.

As I stated before, my initial assumption, based on statements made by mizzjoey is that Mr. F. Senior is not some drooling lecher, but an individual with whom she wishes to remain in a mentor/pupil relationship. This requires a measured response to keep this relationship undamaged. If it doesn't work, then bring out the harpoon.

Mr. Senior is not here to defend himself, so we must rely on mizzjoey to establish the facts for us. Mr. Senior needs to be asked in very clear language if his statements are an indication of romantic intentions. If he indicates that this is the case, then mizzjoey must inform him in equally clear language that she is not interested in a romantic relationship with him. Telling him he might not look good in a Speedo or reminding him of his marital status does not count as clear communication. He may misinterpret these statements that if he looses 20 lbs, waxes his back and gets a divorce that she will say yes and rip off her blouse. In fact, not bringing up her discomfort before this point sends a signal that these advances are welcome.

I’d also like to add that mizzjoey may in fact have a strategy of her own that I hinted at earlier. But I will spell it out now. My apologies to mizzjoey if this is a mis-characterization.

Let’s assume that Mr. Senior’s primary need is to find companionship, and he has spent a great deal of time with mizzjoey, mentoring, etc. in the hopes of obtaining that companionship. Mizzjoey has benefited from the relationship, i.e. her need for a mentor has been met. Whether or not Mr. Senior should be doing this is immaterial. That is between him and his spouse.

If mizzjoey tells Mr. Senior in unequivocal language that she is not interested in a romantic relationship, it becomes obvious to Mr. Senior that his primary need for romance is not going to be met and he may choose to not waste anymore of his time mentoring mizzjoey so that he can pursue someone else. Again, this is not the concern of any of us here, unless one of us becomes his next target. Mzzjoey probably knows this at least in the back of her mind. If she can delay telling him how she feels, she can avoid a difficult revelation about herself and keep him as a mentor. This is unfair to Mr. Senior who may feel as if he has been lead on.

If mizzjoey has misinterpreted his statements, then this is an opportunity to get back on the same page and no one gets hurt. If Mr. Senior lies and says he had no such intentions, but stops the behavior, mizzjoey is spared the discomfort of his pursuit. Mr. Senior may smart a bit from the refusal,however he may eventually get over his infatuation and resume as her mentor.

If Mr. Senior continues the requests, despite repeated reminders, then increasingly stronger measures may be needed. Right now is too soon to start filling out the Order of Protection without at least giving him a chance to modify his behavior.

And as far as calling KENAT impossible, I was only half serious. It was more of a response to his post where he almost seems to brag about being difficult. I've never thought he was difficult. I doubt he is actually that contentious at his job. There are impossible people, but they don’t usually last at their jobs for very long.



"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[KENAT]

Cass, I figured you were joshing, just wasn't totally sure. Other people got more excited than me and kept brining it up.

I wasn't loosing any sleep over it and yes, I have a bad habit of almost taking pride in some characteristics that others assess as negative. For instance I took it as a compliment when the principle of my high school said I was a cynic.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make and I'm pretty sure you & hopefully the OP get is that text book solutions don't always work in the real world. Engineers tend to be a bit off the 'normal range' on various psych type measures as I understand it which adds to my scepticism. I was wondering if you had had an actual example of your kind of approach working.

If I have an issue with someone, think I'm right & they're wrong, and then they come up with all these 'I' statements it's going to confirm my opinion that they have the problem, isn't it?

I'd still suggest being fairly direct with the guy, which Cass approach doesn't necessarily prevent, in fact in later posts she says to do that so we're probably arguing over nothing.

However, I can be impossible, especially when one of my other character flaws of getting caught up on something and not being able to let it go (maybe this is a case in point) flairs up.

Kenat - trying to let it go, honest.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[casseopeia]

KENAT

I don’t have a recent example from my job that I can think of. I don’t usually have these kinds of relationship issues at work because I’m fairly autonomous in what I do and I work with a small group of people that have low levels of drama.

But if you will accept an example from my personal life that occurred about 1-1/2 weeks prior to my last performance in January, I can give you that.

Here is a highly condensed and edited recent conversation between my SO and me that sort of fits the NVC model.

Me (observation): “I really appreciate when you are willing to cook dinner, but I’ve noticed the menu is almost always the same, fried pork chops, augratin potatoes, and canned beans or corn. I know I have mentioned this before that about a week or so before a performance, I like to avoid carbs and eat only low-fat protein and fresh vegetables.”

Me (step 2 of the observation): “Do you remember our conversation from the last time?”

SO: “Yes I remember, but I didn’t make any carbs.”

Me (feeling): “I feel exasperated that I have not quite made myself clear about the food choices here.”

SO: “Oh, and there’s pie for dessert.”

Me (need): “Honey, I’ve gained weight when I should be loosing. I need to avoid this kind of food.” OK, maybe not a universal human need, but pretty prevalent in the US.

SO: “Does that mean you want butter on your tortilla or not?”

Me (request): “Do you know anyone at Kaiser who does lipo?”

Yeah, I didn’t get anywhere, except that I’ve laid the groundwork for my next request around the same issue. And that’s usually how this kind of thing goes. Don’t expect a miracle the first time. It takes work. Every step is difficult and it just isn’t helpful for me to get upset and angry, or throw a fit. It’s about 2 weeks out from my next performance and I will probably try to be in charge of dinner from now until then. Or make sure there is something around that I can eat. At least he's agreed not to keep ice cream around!



"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[SomptingGuy]

Wow, I had the same sort of thing a couple of years back. My SO mentioned that the spark had left and I was letting myself go. So I stopped eating lard and drinking beer. Those two things, done together, see my weight plummet.

But SO started getting annoyed that I wasn't interested in the food she'd cooked for us (me, her, child). It came to a head. I told her that I didn't like being "force fed". That was the day we went our separate ways (mentally), physically a while later.

- Steve

 

[HgTX]

Sounds like settling for complaints falling on deaf ears, not like a success story.

Also, regardless of the intent, statements like "I failed to make myself clear" are dangerously close to "I brought it on myself" which is dangerously close to "I deserved it".

But then I have a dark view of the world.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376