How ethical is it to give and receive gifts 4

[arunmrao]

In India the festive season is just over and it will begin soon all over the western world. This is the time when in the corporate world there is hectic giving and receiving of gifts. In exchangs business favors are returned.How appropriate is it in today's society to give and receive gifts. I request the members to give their opininon Personally I am against it and do not encourage in the business circles that I interact with.

This being the festive season I hope it may be on top of everyone's mind.

 

[patprimmer]

gerhardf

I agree it is very grey, and mostly comes down to intent, which is not a very transparent thing. There is really no such thing as a level playing field, we can only try our best to be fair and equitable.

The tangibles, like price per unit, are easy to assess. The intangibles, like confidence in ability to consistently deliver on time, or a good suggestion re technical improvement in the process, are a lot harder to assess.

IRstuff

I already said, a buyer might or might not give information to other suppliers, after they discovered it was helpful while at lunch with one supplier.

I think we are seeing the ethics differently, because we are seeing the intent and potential outcomes differently

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[gerhardf]

I think pat has said it pretty well: in the end it's the intent that determines whether something is ethical or not.

The other questions -- whether or how much or when and how to accept favors or when something becomes an unacceptable bribe -- depend so much on society, company culture, coworkers, boss, all the other people actively or passively involved, that generalizations are probably not very helpful.

In general (here I go with a generalization it is probably best to talk this over with the people involved; mostly coworkers and bosses, possibly also the (or some) vendors or clients. That should give a good picture in the particular situation. After all, it doesn't help much if I think I'm fair when everybody else feels treated unfairly.

 

[IRstuff]

I think you'll find that intent may be of secondary importance here.

The laws on insider trading are such that even if you do not directly benefit or participate in a trade, you are not given the benefit of the doubt.

Likewise, you can be jailed for unintentional manslaughter.

End result is often the criteria in these situations, not intent, since it's not usually possible to gauge intent after the fact.



TTFN

 

[patprimmer]

IRstuff

I guess your American, and the laws you refer to are probably American.

In Australia we do have insider trading laws, but I have only ever heard of them being implemented when the inside knowledge is used to unfair advantage in trading stocks and bonds.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but this is the WWW, so we really shouldn't presume our laws apply to others.

I certainly have never heard of a salesman being charged for gathering information to prepare for a quote or tender.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[GregLocock]

What about collusion in bids? That's definitely unethical, and I'm pretty sure its illegal. Check out the unfolding Amcor story for an Australian example.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[patprimmer]

Collusion and predatory trading both are definitely illegal in Australia, the USA and the EEC.

There seems to be a major high profile prosecution here every 4 or 5 years, like Boral and CSR with building materials, ICI with Pool chemicals just from memory

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[IRstuff]

There is a rather famous case where Boeing was barred from bidding on a contract because someone at Raytheon left some material behind and it was found by a Boeing employee. Even though the employee turned it in and it was returned to Raytheon, the delay was deemed unacceptable and Boeing got kicked out of a multi-billion dollar competition.

TTFN

 

[gerhardf]

IRstuff, in my comment I presumed everything was done in a legal way -- as I think up to that post most posters presumed the same. Legality so far wasn't the question; it was what behavior was ethical.

Where a clear legal guideline exists, we just follow it. That's probably a consensus here. Where the law is not quite clear, usually the intent does become important -- going back to your example, in most places it is the lack of intent that distinguishes manslaughter from murder.

But most questions discussed and relevant for everyday's life are probably far away from illegal behavior. It is not illegal to accept gifts, it is not illegal to accept invitations, it is not illegal to hand out invitations. (Even though some of this under some circumstances may disqualify you from a specific bidding, it is still not illegal. But the question whether or not it disqualifies you doesn't have a generic answer -- it depends on the specific bidding and the rules set forth for that.)

A question about collusion... is it illegal in bids for public projects, or is it also illegal in bids on the private sector?

 

[IRstuff]

from:

http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/bribery.htm

Bribery
n. The receiving or offering any undue reward by or to a government employees in order to influence his behavior in office and to incline him to act contrary to his duty and the known rules of honesty and integrity. Bribery is a crime and includes paying to receive a government contract, providing a building inspector with a bottle of liquor to ignore a violation or permit, or selling stock to a Congressman at a price below the current rate. Bribery also includes bribes which are issued to corporate officials in order to receive contracts or other items which may benefit their company.

When a quid pro quo is expected from a gift, it becomes a bribe.

You can argue all you want about "intent," but if you give someone a gift, and later receive a contract from that person, do you really think you and your recipient won't at least get investigated for bribery if someone else objects to the arrangement?



TTFN

 

[buzzp]

Our politicians are in trouble then!
They accept gifts on a regular basis with no fear of prosecution. I know two wrongs dont make a right but when you think of the politicians when your turning down your free movie tickets, it makes you think twice. It seems us engineers think more of ourselves to hold such a high regard for ethical behavior when the rest of the world will not think twice about it. We deserve a pat on the back.

 

[gerhardf]

I'm not sure... The definition of bribery you posted has as one of the prime criteria "in order to influence" -- sounds very much like intent to me. Also almost all the examples cited include the word "to" between the bribe and the returned favor, which also seems to indicate a strong relationship with intent. (English is not my native language, so I may be wrong.)

The next question is that it does not talk about receiving or offering _any_ award, but "receiving or offering any _undue_ award". Which seems to make a distinction between due and undue awards -- without defining exactly which awards are undue. (I'm sure there are more detailed laws for some situations.)

So probably in order to make a move in court, an objector would have to show that the award was "undue" and that it was given/received in order to influence the behavior.

And of course this is a legal question, and as such by definition dependent on the country you're talking about. BTW, when I look up "collusion" on that site, it doesn't say anything about (il)legality of it.


But I still wonder where the sudden move to the legal question came from. I was under the impression we were talking about ethical issues (see also the title of the thread). And I continue to think that for the ethics of the question, the intent is probably the most crucial factor, if not the only one.

It may be ethical but not legal in some cases, and it may be legal but not ethical in others...

 

[HgTX]

There is not only intent but perception. Company policies may be built around preventing even the possible appearance of bribery or other sources of undue influence.

Hg

 

[IRstuff]

You're over analyzing the problem.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like a duck you get fired.

Makes little difference what your intent was.

TTFN

 

[patprimmer]

IRstuff

What you say might apply to the environment in which you work, but this site is on the WWW. That is WORLD WIDE WEB.

I think about 50% to 60% of members are from outside the USA. Also what is not allowed in a government agency is often allowed in private enterprise and even more so in family owned companies.

As gerhardf says, ethics and law are often different. This topic is ethics, and maybe perception thereof. It is certainly not ethical to slaughter millions of people, but that is what happens in some countries under some regimes at some times, and you don't have to go outside the USA to find examples if you want to go back to the Indian wars and slavery, which were both legal at the time. Few would argue they were ethical.



Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[gerhardf]

Maybe like this:

Whether it's ethical is determined by the intent.

Whether it's good for the career is determined by the perception (by others, of course).

Whether it's legal is determined by the laws (and the perception of the judge or jury, in case the legality gets challenged in court).

 

[gerhardf]

You guys got me also thinking about collusion. I'm not sure about the ethical aspect of it (again there seems to be the intent thing), but it definitely looks as if most countries consider certain forms of collusion legal and even good or necessary.

Starting from the explanation in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

it seems to me that any form of import barrier (import tax, quotas etc.) are a form of collusion -- the national industry, together with the government, "fix" the prices the consumer of the goods has to pay and don't want to leave it up to market forces.

Maybe it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like a duck -- but for most goverments, it sure looks sometimes like a swan


It also seems to me that there's a difference between two companies or contractors get to some understanding about the value of their products or services, and an agreement between all participants in a certain market segment. So I'm not sure about the relevance of collusion for this topic.

 

[plasgears]

Small gifts given in appreciation should not be a concern.

But I have to tell this story about tipping, which is a related item:

The family gave a birthday party for an old relative in a posh Westbury, NY establishment. I understand it costed above $10,000 for about 150 attendees. The Maitre'D did a thorough job getting everything just right. I gave him a ten in appreciation.

As I was getting the coats, a big goon, the facility mgr, approached me and said "I understand you gave R. ten dollars." I said, "Yes, he did a good job, and I wanted to show my appreciation." Then the guy surprised me with the following: "We expect $100 for the Maitre'D. I strongly suggest you think about it." I said "I'm sure the other fellows have given something." "Nobody else has given anything." "I'll think about it."

My wife and I have resolved never to tip except for meals and cabs. I'm looking foreward to saving money and avoiding money grubbers.

 

[iluvrabits]

In US govt, we may recieve a "gift" of less than $5.00. So, typically this will not cover lunch. Coffee, maybe, if you're at Starbucks, or not. This is pretty strict for good reasons.

You're also not allowed to give your boss or coworker a gift unless its less than $25, and it has to be a special occasion (their birthday, for example). These are usually the

Gifts are sometimes genuine gifts, often they come with underlying motives or intentions.

 

[HgTX]

I suspect that policy varies from agency to agency. Some federal agencies definitely don't have a problem with accepting meals.

Interesting that they control gifts between employees, though. That's new to me. Anyone else run into that?

Hg

 

[buzzp]

Its funny about the US government. The workers cant except gifts but the higher ups practice this on a daily basis. The higher ups also solicit workers for any leads on any political events they should attend to promote the current administration. We had a letter out about 7-8 months ago that ask everyone this very question.
Of course, this was due to the election.

Not sure if I am supposed to accept meals (and beverages) but I do it anyway. Its harmless in my opinion.

I agree with the employee gift thing except I dont think we can give our boss a gift.