How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable? 35

[MotoGP]

Greetings to my fellow engineers:

Several years prior to receiving my undergraduate MechE (1998) and since that time up until the present moment, I have been employed within the "petro-chem-offshore-marine" bailiwick.

Although I have found myself struggling with the specific language to use in this forum, so that I could make a lucid plea for your opinions pertaining to the subject matter, I'm prepared to let this version "fly".

I have been married (my first, and last, hopefully)for three years and have come to realize that my "devotion to my employer" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by working excessive hours over the "normal work week" (whatever that is supposed to mean)has been the result of my attempts at developing a "good will" quotient at work. It is intrusive on my personal life, and I don't have a good concept of "how-much-is-enough".

I mean to express that, at least for now, I still beleive in a law of "reaping-and-sowing" such that I feel that I should "put-in" (hours, other ways of returning value, etc.) before I expect to "get-out" (receiving promotions, salary increases, ensuring a greater likelihood of surviving a corporate re-engineering of its staff, and the like).

It makes me feel foolish now to admit that when I first began my engineering career, I used to scoff under-my-breath about the folks who showed up late, took long lunch brakes and left early every day. I used to admire not the "work-a-holic" but held in high-esteem the company "good-'ol-grinder". However, maybe these people that I once considered as "slackers" really have a more healthy approach to their management of life and a "normal" work week(40 hours?...hoo-ha!).

Does there exist a reasonable approach in dealing with the employer/immediate manager when "un-paid" overtime in the company culture appears to be the norm? Does one reasonably set (only for the purpose of this example) a 10-hour-per-week-limit for an un-paid "overtime-gift" to the employer? Or,is this a contemporarily perverse notion, and simply a matter of discipline and self-teaching to "put-the-calculator-down-at-5:00" and "beat-feet" out of the office?

It just has been the case, again in my bailiwick, that incompetent, lazy, bumblers can be seen receiving just as many kudos (if not more) than those who really seem to always put-forth the "yeoman's effort" (seems to be about 15-20% of employees that fall into this category).

In short (much too late to say that now, I guess) how much extra weekly work should one reasonably provide his/her employer with, that is not compensated by either increased income or vacation time? Could the answer be "0"?

This issue has confounded me ever since I have joined the ranks of the salaried work-world. When I was employed as a refinery operator, I could always count on getting paid for all of the time that I spent at the plant...just as a case-in-point. Should any of you have any thoughts on this matter, I would most genuinely appreciate each and every response. My best regards to all of you.

Pete

 

[GregLocock]

My employer claims that the automotive industry average in Australia is 7 hours per week unpaid OT for engineers.

There is an unwritten (and, in fact, illegal) rule that you have to do 5 hours in a week before getting paid OT.

I work to the exact hours in my contract. I have not claimed overtime in two years, and flex time off if I work late (or more likely come in early) if there is a rush job or if I need access to multiple workstations.

I would add that I get good, but not great, appraisals.

Most people who spend long hours in the office are probably failing to do their actual job, and are spending too much time doing the wrong things. Sitting at my desk doodling on a piece of paper is part of my job. Filling in spreadsheets for somebody else is not.

So to answer your questions, my employer thinks we should do 7, is prepared to compensate us after 5, and I do 0.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[MotoGP]

G'day Greg!

(I hope that a "non-Aussie" can use that greeting without appearing presumptuous.)

Thanks for the "brotherly" advice! I feel much better about going through with my plans to put my current hourly donations on a "slim-fast" diet.

Thank you for your time and sharing your opinion.

Cheers!
Pete

 

[melone]

Or perhaps we just have so much work to do, we don't have the luxury of leaving after our 8 hours....

 

[GregLocock]

I was thinking about this, melone. My job is 25% "must do" stuff, that is planned into the project and has to happen by a certain date. This is the least interesting part of my job, but also the part that is of most direct concern to the business.

The rest of my time is spent doing two things. First is a long term project, that will bear no directly useful fruit for 4 years. It is an annoying mixture of stuff that I am good at, and computing nonsense (TCP protocols and things like that). This is very interesting indeed, but no one in the entire company would notice if it goes down the gurgler, although it may get a few more supporters when I start to publish results later this year. It isn't rocket science by the way, but we are the first section in our multinational corporation to do it, so we feel like cutting edge.

The other thing I do is work with project teams on their problems (all non-scheduled engineering activities are essentially problems, in our corporate language). This is where I /really/ earn the dollars, I think.

So at a rough guess 30% of my time is spent doing something that could easily be sacrificed if we had too many problems, or if the mundane work spikes up. Now, oddly enough the mundane work has increased up over the past couple of years, so my predecessor's reaction was to identify the most boring part of the mundane work, and teach his customer how to do it, giving them more direct control. This Machievellian little plot has worked perfectly in reducing my mundane workload, plus I get kudos for spreading the word, increasing other people's skill sets, etc etc. The people we've do this to, like it, as the tool (ADAMS) looks good on their resumes and is fun to use anyway.

So if you've got too much work, find someone else to do it!

Here's some other things that will save you time:

Never plan on attending the same meeting as your boss, unless you are being brought on as a dancing bear. If it is a routine technical meeting why is he there? To override you?

Talk to your manager for 1/2 hour a week, so he knows what you are doing. If he wants a summary give him a verbal one. (I am bad at this, I haven't talked to my boss for 9 weeks!)

If other people want you to recast your data to fit their reports give them your raw data, or find a secretary. You are not a data entry clerk.

Take minutes during the meeting and issue handwritten markups only.

Cut down on meetings. I go to only two regularly every week now. Very little happens in a week, it is often worth using a once-every-two weeks schedule. I could go to two a day - so that's saved me a whole day a week even if they only go for an hour.

Use a formal problem solving methodology and understand how it works. Most of our problems solve themselves once we figure out what the real problem is.

Make sure that even impromptu meetings have a defined purpose and scope, and, preferably, an agenda.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[GregLocock]

Oh, by the way, I realise that I am lucky to have an interesting job that offers me flexibility and a challenge, I've had some truly horrible jobs in the past where there was no flexibility, no challenge, long hours and no future. The next step seemed pretty obvious to me.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[corus]

Greg has the right attitude. In some companies it appears the norm to work late to such an extent that the first person to leave is deemed not to be "pulling their weight", what ever that means. There should be a bit of give and take in a company but there seems to be more give than take from some people. If you can't do your job in 35 hours (who does 40?) then you're either not capable or they should be employing some more people and reduce those unemployment lines.
It is fast becoming the norm not to pay overtime, though not apparently in the US, YET. At least overtime payment rewards you for your time and penalises the company. We were "bought out" with the management line that they wanted a more professional attitude from staff with a fixed salary. That attitude didn't apply to contractors, strangely, who quite rightly were paid for every minute they were there and yet were hired because they were qualified professionals.
Have a life, go home, and help someone find a job who is unemployed.

 

[TheTick]

There are things you live on, and things you live for. Don't live for your career (unless you own a business). Nobody goes to there grave wishing they had spent more time at their desk (especially unpaid).

An employment agreement is a contract. I give my employer the best quality effort I can muster for the time wee agreed upon. I do not count "unwritten expectations" as part of that agreement.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[melone]

While I agree that the automotive field allows you the flexibility to simply quit at the end of the day, the high end commercial cell phone market does not offer the same luxury. If you want to get a new technology phone to market, not just a rehash of the same old design that has been proven over the past 20 years, you need to put in the extra time. I get paid to solve problems that are show stoppers for development / production. Unfortunately, most problems are not solved at the end of the "business" day.

Having spent almost 10 years in automotive, and the last 4 years in high end handheld electronics, I can state with confidence that the product sectors are COMPLETELY different. While automotive timetables are rigid and absolute, consumer electronics offer the added joy of new technology (that hasn't been proven), cut throat business practices, and the ever tightening turn-around time from concept to finished product.

However, please don't take this to be slam against either field. I enjoy the chance to solve problems from the most basic of levels (semiconductor design and validation), to the system level (interaction between base stations and the phone). So please don't insist that simply because I have a LOT of work to do, that I am just inefficient. Effeciency is a prerequisite for my job!

 

[TheTick]

I worked in the home electronics industry, and I am aware of the insane hours, especially when overseas tooling and production is involved. The only sane way to work those hours is on an hourly rate basis. I was fortunate to not have been a direct employee and valuable enough to be retained in such a manner. Also, I deliberately chose not to contribute free time to a culture that demanded twice the agreed-upon effort for the same compensation.

I have since traded the good money I was making in that industry for good time with my family. More than a fair trade.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

I have often considered this type situation as a strange mathematical equation which can be drawn (in concept) on a graph. The x-axis is the employee's effort (perhaps measured in hours on the job). The y-axis shows the results (maybe work accomplished). The law of diminishing returns applies. Here is the odd part - the employee's effort (x-axis) is measured only by the employee, the results (y-axis) are really judged by others (perhaps managagement). If the employee reduces his efforts (say to 40 hr/wk), he may consider himself to be a "slackard". However, because of the law of diminishing returns, management may not even notice any difference in the results.
I know that this analysis sounds unusual, but a surprising number of folks have told me that it does make sense when thought about for a while.

 

[GregLocock]

Hi melone, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are inefficient- but can't you find /anything/ useful in my list?

A significant number of our problems are solved, or at least most intensely examined, down the pub. The work environment is not generally a good place for sustained deep thought - and that is what some problems need, obviously. I also find mowing the lawn is a good time to mull the complex ones over.

Oh here's another one - last week I found a paper on the efficiency of brainstorming - and to my total lack of surprise it suggested TWO people as the optimum number of brainstormers. The primary purpose of getting the whole project team together in a b/s (grin) session is to get group buy-in to the solution, it does not generate better solutions in itself.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[melone]

Greg, I agree in principle with what you have said. I also find that getting away from "work" is often the best place to find the solution to a problem. However, there are cases where long hours are required. I just didn't want people to think that just because you work more than 40 hours/week ("standard" in the US), you are either, 1) unorganized, 2) milking the clock to look good, or 3) not dedicated to your family. The reasons that I work overtime is quite the opposite. I will do whatever it takes to provide for my family, and I won't let my personal happiness get in the way.

Would I like to tell my boss to take a flying leap, of course. Unfortunately, I don't have enough financial flexibility to be out of work for an extended period of time (thanks in part to the wonderful US economy). Since I am no smarter than the people I work with, the only way to distinguish myself from my collegues is to out hustle them. When push comes to shove, I want to be the person that they call on!

Just my opinion...

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

MotoGP
Excellent question. One I suspect that all ancient Professionals have faced. My epiphany was when my wife said " Your work or me" I looked at what I was doing.

It is easy to be a workaholic. Managment loves you. It is the "nature of the beast" that companies are formed for profit. They make this from your effort. It then follows that any employer will welcome your extra effort in most forms.( meaning legal methods) If this kind of recognition is your drive however, you ought to try charity work. They love you more and it is something that you can share with ones for whom you care. Each person I have worked for will say I gave good value. That is my standard. Some I reaped a nice profit, some not, continued work was always related to compensation.

As I age my definition of compensation changes. Health insurance is a big part of family life. Not so when I was single or newly married. Travel was fun when there were two, with six it became impossible. Compensation is a personal issue. The peace you make is yours.

The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude

 

[9388]

Individual Company has it own policies, any overtime(s) worked should be made clear and justified.

 

[cosmicchris]

Normal Meetings can be replaced with any number of alternatives (Vid Conf, Tel Conf, Net Meeting). If you're the one who initiates these and, more importantly, they work, your boss won't be bothered by you coming in at 1030 and going at 1400.

Managers can be contrary. If you take the initiative they may reign you in and if you don't they'll encourage you to (its a control thing). The only way you'll find the best way is to talk to them in the first place.

As for people interfering with your work, tell them to take a running jump. Why did they employ you in the first place?

Use a whiteboard (with printer) in meetings and print out and copy the contents. Title, date and attendees at the top. Make sure everyone takes a copy of the printed minutes. No misunderstandings.

 

[IRstuff]

It's time to roll out one extremely good rule for living:

"No one, on their deathbed, has ever wished to have spent more time at work."

Companies and managers are very greedy creatures and rarely care how long you spend at work. My managers, the good ones, anyway, care more about getting things done on schedule than the amount of overtime put in.

> Put in overtime when you NEED to, not to simply put it in, particularly, if someone else is able to do the same amount of work in less time; it simply makes you look incompetent and inefficient.

> Additionally, it makes you look like you don't have a life.

> Get your work done, quickly and efficiently. If you finish yuor work ahead of schedule, you can get brownie points for helping others finish their work.

> As an added bonus, when you DO put in overtime, it's obvious that you're putting in extra effort, instead of simply slogging on as usual.

> Take care of your home life now; when your kids become teenagers, they won't want to spend time with you and it'll be too late. Ditto with your wife.



TTFN

 

[oldluddite]

When you first got the job it should have been made clear that on occasion, it might be necessary to work overtime to deal with occasional peaks, and the salary paid should reflect that. But, if, as you describe, it is a culture, I believe its wrong to continually work extra hours as a norm. You are an asset to their business, and a wage slave in every sense of the word.

When I was a senior manager, I can assure you that senior managers and owners are only interested in one thing - themselves. Employees who continually work long hours are often viewed as suckers behind the scenes, and patted in the back in public. After all, if you can employ people on the basis of a 37 hour week, and then get them to work 48, its good business !

If you are going to continually work overtime, do it for yourself, for your business on the side, or embryo business. Everyone should be looking to how they can make themselves richer. That is how our capitalist economy works. Don't be afraid to put your interests first because no boss will. It might be a bit difficult to run a personal business from your employers offshore rig, but engineers are inventive people !

"Putting Automation into CAD ©"

 

[NOx]

I think oldluddite has hit the nail on the head, the only people who truly benefit from unpaid overtime are
1- Your manager
2- The company
Your manager can therefore take the credit for having the most "loyal staff" and the company can reap the benifit from its increased production / turnaround / output / whatever.
My own experience started in my current position, when joining the company the team I worked within excelled itself by offering an extra 10 hours per week each ( total 40 Hrs). Over a period of time and through discussions at the pub it transpired that everyone had the same thoughts but were seemingly unwilling to put forward their feelings incase they became the odd one out. Now as a team we no longer give our time freely unless we have a major rush project or any one of us needs the others assistance.

Our motto is simple
"work to live don't live to work".

 

[MortenA]

Im a consultant in the oil and gas buisiness. I get paid for every hour I book. I think thats fair because if I didnt get paid why should the customer then have to pay?

Best regards

Morten