How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable? 35

[MotoGP]

Greetings to my fellow engineers:

Several years prior to receiving my undergraduate MechE (1998) and since that time up until the present moment, I have been employed within the "petro-chem-offshore-marine" bailiwick.

Although I have found myself struggling with the specific language to use in this forum, so that I could make a lucid plea for your opinions pertaining to the subject matter, I'm prepared to let this version "fly".

I have been married (my first, and last, hopefully)for three years and have come to realize that my "devotion to my employer" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by working excessive hours over the "normal work week" (whatever that is supposed to mean)has been the result of my attempts at developing a "good will" quotient at work. It is intrusive on my personal life, and I don't have a good concept of "how-much-is-enough".

I mean to express that, at least for now, I still beleive in a law of "reaping-and-sowing" such that I feel that I should "put-in" (hours, other ways of returning value, etc.) before I expect to "get-out" (receiving promotions, salary increases, ensuring a greater likelihood of surviving a corporate re-engineering of its staff, and the like).

It makes me feel foolish now to admit that when I first began my engineering career, I used to scoff under-my-breath about the folks who showed up late, took long lunch brakes and left early every day. I used to admire not the "work-a-holic" but held in high-esteem the company "good-'ol-grinder". However, maybe these people that I once considered as "slackers" really have a more healthy approach to their management of life and a "normal" work week(40 hours?...hoo-ha!).

Does there exist a reasonable approach in dealing with the employer/immediate manager when "un-paid" overtime in the company culture appears to be the norm? Does one reasonably set (only for the purpose of this example) a 10-hour-per-week-limit for an un-paid "overtime-gift" to the employer? Or,is this a contemporarily perverse notion, and simply a matter of discipline and self-teaching to "put-the-calculator-down-at-5:00" and "beat-feet" out of the office?

It just has been the case, again in my bailiwick, that incompetent, lazy, bumblers can be seen receiving just as many kudos (if not more) than those who really seem to always put-forth the "yeoman's effort" (seems to be about 15-20% of employees that fall into this category).

In short (much too late to say that now, I guess) how much extra weekly work should one reasonably provide his/her employer with, that is not compensated by either increased income or vacation time? Could the answer be "0"?

This issue has confounded me ever since I have joined the ranks of the salaried work-world. When I was employed as a refinery operator, I could always count on getting paid for all of the time that I spent at the plant...just as a case-in-point. Should any of you have any thoughts on this matter, I would most genuinely appreciate each and every response. My best regards to all of you.

Pete

 

[zdas04]

A few years ago (closer to 20) I was working 70-90 hours a week and pretty much killing myself. One day my boss brought in yet another project and I snapped. I showed him the list I was working on and said "which of these projects would you like me to stop so I can fit in the new project". He said "we have nights and we have weekends". That day I joined a gym and began scruplously working 40 hours/week and stopped doing my e-mail (it was a hydra even back then) at night after the family went to bed. A year later I got a very nice raise and I was EXACTLY as far behind as I had been when I was working all the time.

From that point on, if I found myself working overtime (and I often did) it was because I was working on stuff I was enjoying. When it stopped being fun I went home (or turned off the computer in my den). When someone asked me to do a dumb task with a silly deadline I simply missed the deadline and NO ONE CARED. I joined a carpool so I had a built-in excuse to walk out of meetings that had no end in sight. I never missed a soccer game or an elementary-school play because of "important meetings".

I had a job once where all of the boss' direct reports sat very close to the boss' office. In the evening they all sat around and waited for someone else to be the first to leave (it was never the boss, she didn't have a life outside the office) - most of those slugs started playing solitare or the like about 3:30. When I got transfered into the group I made it clear that I was in a carpool that left at 4:15 and I planned to be in it every evening. The rest said they were always at their desks till after 6:00. After a couple of years I got the highest raise and the only promotion - the boss said "David always gets his work done in a reasonable time frame and should be commended for balancing his work and family". The company was bought out shortly after that and none of the rest of the slugs made the change to the new company.

Overtime for the sake of appearance is never a good idea - most of the time the boss is smart enough to see that you're just polishing the apple.

David

 

[alol]

Overtime for the sake of it, along with many other destructive behaviors, may be the sign of a sick organization.

Recommended only if your are desperate, see if your library has the following book:

"The Addictive Organization", by Anne Wilson Schaef and Diane Fassel. (Harper - ISBN 0-06-254841-7)

It obviously has its share of psycho-babble but its basic premise seems sound........"why we overwork, cover up, pick up the pieces, please the boss and perpetuate sick organizations"

 

[etch]

okay for my two cents worth

I worked for a casting company, that was expected that you workled a Minimum of 9 hours overtime a week. After these 9 hours they then thought highly enough of you to pay you at a lesser hourly rate that you were already on. It was not uncommon for me to start at 6am and finish at 1 am the following following day only to be pulled up for coming in a bit later at 7 am. I worked easily 90 hours a week. And could have been earning more staking shelves in a supermarket.

You could work a saturday and sunday for them and not get paid for it.

The company directors installed a logic of constant work and shrinking deadlines. I decided that my life an health were far more important that work, so i took a pay cut and moved elsewhere.

 

[john2k3]

It is really a very interesting issue, especially in US.
In my last work (manager - salaried position) we agreed that my weekly workload will be 45 hrs.
However, I did not realise how much of previously required work was not done. I worked 60+ hrs weeks to try to keep everything on schedule. Even this was not enough. I asked my boss (Company General Manager) to hire some help. Without success. Some work was done late. After two month a new GM arrived (old one retired but he had a good technical experiance, new one was coming with no technical background). Two month later I finished work for this company. And it is not me who is a loser.
My final though: work even a little bit more than minimum required, but do not expect any special recognition for this. If your boss do not understand what the work load is, it should be his problem, not yours. Even in tough time like now, it is better to leave him alone.
John

 

[pablo02]

I worked 28 years for a company as a direct employee -- worked the needed hours, spent extra doing the things to help my career -- it was a good company and I was rewarded for it; several of us were used to resolve operating plant problems (go fix the situation) -- new management arrived that eventually got greedy (and in my opinion, corrupt), laid us all off without knowing us, without caring, and without a "thankyou"... were all those extra hours necessary -- yes and no; they provided knowledge and experiences I'd get nowhere else and I didn't miss a school function for my kids -- but I realize there are a lot of things I could have enjoyed and done alot more with my family;

I now work for a small engineering firm whose work is growing like mad, but the management is afraid of a downturn and won't hire anymore people -- they treat us exceptionally well, but I'm putting in more hours than I did before and I'm already burned out -- are the hours worth it -- not anymore.... I'd like to find a stress-free 10 to 2 job that pays as well...

if you enjoy work, then maybe the hours don't hurt -- if you enjoy other things (or should), then 'zdas04' has the right attitude...

 

[pmureiko]

Pete,

Make sure your work input, matches the company's compensation output. If there is a mismatch in this equation, one side of it needs to be adjusted. You can ask for a pay raise, get a promotion that recognizes your ability, or cut back on your work time. You may find that you get as much done working less hours because you are rested, more focused & efficient, and better at prioritizing.

Beware of the employers offering above average salary, but tell you after starting employment the salary was based on mandatory overtime. Exxon did this in the past and may still be.

Good luck with your family.

 

[buzzp]

I have had jobs where OT was always paid at a straight time rate, some that paid none, and some that pay it all either in 1.5X, comp time, or credit hours.
I agree that some jobs require the occasional OT to get something done or to put out fires. However, I would never do it continuously without compensation. Its only fair.
I used to work at a design/mfg place where they brought in a new engineer (a Senior Design Engineer that had 5 years experience). As soon as this guy started he was staying til 7-8 at night. Now he had no big projects, no deadlines, nothing to do that could not wait. He insisted on working the 12 hours a day. After observing his habits during the day, I noticed his time was being wasted surfing the net and BS'ing and trying to educate our interns on engineering. Hah, the guy was being laughed at the whole time. Now the manager, he loved it and gave the guy a key so he could stay late. Evidentally he bought into his long hour routine. Later it was discovered, he was waiting til everyone left, then he would leave for a couple of hours then come back to shut off his computer. He was striving to be the last one to leave to cast an image of a hard worker. This kind of person has no real backbone in my opinion. However, management likes it because it shows commitment. Now if the manager at this particular place had a clue, they would see right through it. Since this is a small company, the engineer is not going to get promoted to anything. He only succeeded in making many enemies at work because of his need to be a brown noser.
I never work uncompensated anymore except on a rare occasion. Those that give the employer free hours when it is NOT NEEDED are only hurting themselves and the rest of us engineers who have a life. Notice, I capitalized NOT NEEDED.
If you work 50 hours a week and get paid for forty hours,say at a rate of $35/hr. Then in one month you actually worked 200 hours, got paid for 160 hrs. So your new hourly rate is (35*160)/200 =5600/200= $28/hr. If you work 60 hrs each week and get paid for 40 only then your $35/hr is now 5600/240~$23/hr.

 

[Maui]

During the course of a job interview, it is common practice to inquire about the expected number of hours that you will be required to put in each week. For most engineering jobs that I have interviewed for, the expectation is 45-50 hours per week. In my current position, I was very conscientous about the hours that I worked until the first strike occurred. The management employees were forced the work out on the floor while the union walked the picket line, and in order to meet the order deadlines overtime was strongly encouraged. I worked several 12 hour days, and after the strike ended, I noticed something odd about my pay. Seems that we were supposed to be paid straight time for each hour that we worked beyond the standard 40 hrs/week. But they never mentioned that the overtime pay rate would be at the same rate that the union worker got for doing that particular job, which was much less than what I earned. After this little deception, I decided that I would not put in one additional minute of overtime. In the last five years I have not worked one weekend, or worked any overtime, and I have survived several rounds of layoffs.

As long as you perform your job competently and effectively, I've found that managers who make these type of unreasonable requests are not accustomed to hearing an employee tell them no. I have made it clear where I stand on several issues, and overtime is something that I will not put in again for my current employer. In my opinion, any overtime that you put in should be compensated by equal time off or by an equivalent hourly rate. If neither of these options are available to you, then your overtime hours should be zero.


Maui

 

[Grouser]

The new millenium has brought some changes to the workplace in the US. Employer "loyalty" to the employees is nearly dead. As you are entering the engineering industry, you need to behave as a professional and provide a "fair" day's work for the pay. Occasional unpaid overtime up to 8-10 hours per week is not too unreasonable if your pay is decent. If you work the overtime, get something for it. Make sure your efforts are noticed. Use the effort as an angle to qualify for the extra training/seminar or to work on that project that really excites you. You'll get more mileage out of having a passion and enjoyment for your work than you ever will by working excessive overtime.

As stated by others above, try to be as efficient as you can and don't forget the world outside of work. Excessive overtime makes you look inefficient. If the axe comes, the efficient employees will stay. Manage your career, before someone else does.

 

[sc]

A work ethic from most community service type clubs is:

Family
Work
Service club

I have not seem many clubs that don't live by this rule. I have worked some high pressure jobs and done the overtime, etc without complaint until one day I realised that yes work was good, but family was better and more fun.

I now tell any client or employer that I work to the above rule and if they don't like it then I have no wish to work for them. Yes I have missed out on a few contracts because of it but I'm still married and I still get to see my family during the week and on the weekends.


regards
sc

 

[RDK]

Since I have my own business I am not really in a position to answer this question.

When I was an employee, I was always compensated for my overtime ever since an informal agreement was violated. This agreement was that I could take flextime to compensate for all the overtime I was working. When I asked for a couple of days off I was told that the half day I had last month was full compensation for working 13 weeks without a day off and a lot of 10-12 hour days. Luckily for me I had documented the hours worked and submitted a formal request for overtime pay and collected a tidy sum.

When I have had employees I have always insisted that they charge for the time worked and see that they are paid, either as direct pay at time and one half or compensatory time off again at 1.5 times overtime worked.

Your job agreement is a contract. You will have to live up to your part of it, why shouldn’t the employer? There are also labour laws that may apply. (Although for some reason in Manitoba, engineering work is specifically exempted from the overtime requirements.)



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[mabn]

From what I know, in most of Canada (I'm not sure about all the provinces specifically), doctors and engineers are the only professions that are exempt from the overtime legislation.

 

[Hush]

As mabn mentioned, in Alberta at any rate, there is no legal requirement to pay professional engineers overtime. On the otherhand you are ethically bound to fulfil the terms of your employment contract. Kind of one sided eh?

I look at it as I'm being paid X dollars per month to do Y. If I get Y done in 20 hours a week my employer struck a bad deal (unless X is really low). If it takes me 60 hours a week, I struck a bad deal (unless X is really high) and I'd better renegotate or go elsewhere.

In general, the figures I've used from the employer's standpoint is actual hours worked should average between 90% to 115% of 40 hours. Any more or any less and productivity will suffer after time.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Generally when I see overtime, I see incompetence.

It may be the:
Company's extreme aggressiveness, which leads to a take the money and run company culture.
Manager's unreasonable expectations and promises.
Lack of experience during project planning.
Company's client manager trying to make a name for him/herself on other peoples back.
Employees not in the right role.

If we all step back and think this through maybe this wouldn't be an issue.

As an employee, is this the kind of company one wants to work for in the long run? As a shareholder is it healthy for sustained growth?

Regards

VOD

 

[buzzp]

In the US, engineers are not required to be paid overtime in most cases because we are in 'exempt' positions. This generally means salary. Generally, (at least in my experience) OT is paid as straight time OT if it is paid at all.
One thing I learned recently is be careful how your salary is calculated to come up with an hourly wage. I always used 12 months for this calculation but most employers use the 52 weeks to come up with an hourly wage. I guess I was spoiled by a company that used 12 months to calculate this since 52 weeks will give you a lower hourly wage.

 

[HardMetal]

Hourly wage = salary / 2080.

2080 = number of hours worked during a year (40 x 52).

 

[buzzp]

As I said, thats the normal way, yes. But my first job out of college was not that way. They used salary/12/160(hrs in normal month).

 

[miner00]

Generally, hourly calculations don't matter as most engineers are salaried and get paid on an annual basis. Hourly calculations only come into play for you lucky buggers who get some kind of overtime compensation.

I occasionally sit down and do the calculation for my work and use between 2340 and 2600 as my denominator (45-50 hr week) as that is required by my boss... and find that my hourly wage goes down by 5 to 6 dollars an hour. Thats a lovely thought to leave work with after a 48hr week!

No I am not incompetant in my job and there is really no reason why I would have to work an extra day every week, other than the fact that my boss and my boss's boss require it. There are larger compensational problems at my company that I won't go into. Let's just say that the economy right now is not employee friendly.

Unfortunately, there are engineering managers out there who care little about productivity and realistic schedules and only care about your timecard. If it can't be measured, graphed or otherwise quantified, it isn't real!

miner

 

[buzzp]

I dont think OT is a sign of incompetence in most cases. Every case, however, is different and there is no way to make any sort of generalization.
Miner00; the economy is tough right now so one can not make to many waves. I believe the sacrifices made by previous engineers has only added to the busnessman's greed. They have come to expect that engineers will work long hours without compensation, even if they do not make a decent amount of money. Contributing to this is the fact that engineers continue to work hard and are willing to put in more hours. Mostly, because they like there work. The employers are capitalizing on this. The failure to compensate an engineer who continuously needs or wants to work extra hours says a lot about a company. Maybe one day the employers will realize that engineers do network and a bad companies reputation will soon catch up with them by lack of qualified personnel.

 

[thebigdog]

What a range of opinions. I have the very real benefit of working for an ESOP - so I am an owner. The attitude of the majority of the "employees" in an ESOP is substantially different from the average employee. We all share in the profits. We recognize we only benefit when there are profits to share. There no written expectations, but peer pressure from those working around you let you know when you aren't carrying your load. Rarely do you see a clock watcher waiting for 5:00 to hit the road - if you are in the middle of something, you stay until you finish it.

If your company expects more of you than you are willing to give, I suggest you look for a more compatable position elsewhere.