how to tackle this type 26

[ac1980]

new to this forum, looking for some valuable suggestion. how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type? i am facing problems with working with an individual who gets to make the calls in projects (by virtue of position), and whenever i come up with better method/mode to do things faster/better, i get completely cut off from that project right after! its almost like i tried to push this person out of his comfort zone and made his insecured, and so being cut off is my punishment. this person expects me to do his "dirty" work at all times, and tries to keep me at bay from all design/engineering work. i would appreciate if someone can offer some suggestion.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I think a "ninja claw" is a tool, used for climbing walls and for defending against sword strokes. I do not know how to associate such a hardware item with a personality type. Maybe it's because I am a senior person.

I recognize that not using the shift key is easier and faster for you, but it's not better for me; it makes your whiny drivel much less readable than it could be.

Senior persons are often assigned to clean up messes after junior people make them. ... the assignment is done by someone even more senior, at least by rank, if not age.

Do not take it personally. Do not assume that the assigned senior person enjoys cleaning up after you; I assure you they do not. But they don't take it personally; they just do what needs to be done.

I get the impression you are a junior person, which by definition means that you will be assigned 'scut work'. Do not take that personally, either; you have to do the scut work long enough to allow you to differentiate it from other work, so you can in turn assign it to a junior person, leaving you time to do the core work, after you what that is, and you know how to do it.

On a more constructive note, I suggest that you use your own time to figure out _why_ you were removed from certain projects, and what you are going to do differently in the future. If you are having trouble with the figuring out, you might use the simple tactic of asking the senior person who replaced you. ... politely. Take notes. Do not argue; just listen and write.







Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Henneshoe]

The best suggestion I can offer is to brush up on your powers of persuasion. This sounds like a case where you are going to catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Try to become friends with this person. You will have a hard time trying to get someone to heed your advise if they do not trust and respect you as a person. Additionally, remember with experience comes insight, so if you have a good relationship with this person they may be more willing to let you know what their concerns are with your idea.

Don't be overly critical of their ideas, and always remember to show appreciation when they help you with something. Try to think of things from their point of view.

When doing the two things above, don't be fake. Sincerity will breed a good relationship. False complements will end up looking like you are trying to suck up. There is nothing worse than watching someone try to suck-up to you. So make sure whatever you do, you mean it.

It sounds like you have some good ideas. In my experience, most people in leadership positions earned it with lots of hard work and talent. Maybe you can find a good friend in this person if you give it a chance.

 

[FeX32]

LOL! Ninja claw! pow


Fe

 

[jmw]

I'm with Mike.
You can assume that your ideas are good/better than the senior's but assumption is the road to disaster. As Mike says, if ideas are rejected, ask why and learn. Maybe he this is something he is trying to get you to learn? Presenting ideas as faster and better you need to listen to why they might not be so good and if you are not asking he may consider this as a dangerous attitude - whether you are right or not. It is as important to know why something is right as it is to know why something else is wrong. When something works and has worked time and again, you really need a compelling reason to show why it should be changed.

You need to stop fixing things that work and look for the things that don't work.

Your senior may also be getting frustrated by the fact that you keep going down the same path and not seeming to want to adopt a better attitude.

Also, the next idea you have don't say "Hey if we do it my way we'll save time and money and do a better job." (better than you, old man).

You say, "I was thinking about how we might do it this way but are there any problems with doing that?"

There may well be some good in your ideas but not in how you say it and until you find the right approach, they are going to get rejected.
Note that in many tasks what matters is meeting the objectives, not how they are met; they don't have to be the quickest or the cheapest or even better if they meet the objectives and are costed appropriately and as often as not "faster" and "better" are normally mutually exclusive and so viewed with suspicion.

One thing, you need to complete on some of these projects without getting kicked off. Current and future employers may conclude one or both of two things: that you are not a good engineer and/or that you have lousy people skills and are unmanageable. Not good to get tagged with either label. Not good to go to an interview and have to omit your senior from your references.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MacGyverS2000]

A little harsh there, don't you think, Mike? I've been in ac's shoes, and sometimes the junior guy does have the better solution, but the senior guy is stuck in his ways and is unwilling to try something else. I know my way was better because it was only after the project was done (and failed) that my objections to the used method were right on track.

I see where you're coming from... often times junior guys don't know what they don't know, and the senior guy is not interested in wasting time with a method that won't work. But that's a big assumption on your part...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[mauricestoker]

sounds like a cross of ee cummings and wally from dilbert. if you are getting the same paycheck regardless, than have a bright suggestion for every project, learn to enjoy sudoku, and eat lots of donuts.

 

[Ron]

Don't ya love these forums...we get to be lawyers and psychiatrists!

an individual who gets to make the calls in projects (by virtue of position)

A bit of envy comes through in this statement. Be patient. He got that position for a reason. He doesn't "get" to make those calls...he "gets" the responsibility for those calls. There's a difference, that you should learn. Most often senior engineers are promoted to such positions for their engineering competence, not for their people skills. Perhaps he has a limited review budget and to have to repeatedly go through some new idea with you on each project is more than he can afford...he has a boss, too.

We've all had those "senior" people who were "in our way". Sometimes they truly are in our way. Sometimes their experience and seasoning are better than we realize as younger engineers. But perception is often stronger than reality.

I suspect that neither of you are particularly "people" oriented. You approach him in the wrong way and he responds in a wrong way...for you. You have apparently achieved a level of irritation with him that has caused your credibility to suffer. If you truly want to correct that, then have a conversation with him about it. Just keep in mind that to have an adult conversation, you need two adults in the room.

If he doesn't have direct salary control over you, he probably has some input to your reviews at the least.

 

[Twoballcane]

I’m sorry ac, but right off the bat with your writing format of your post is un-professional. If this is the same magnitude of respect to your senior, than I can understand why they would want to place you some where you cannot do too much damage. Is your pitch for new ideas done in a professional tone and language? Did you have some kind of backup data to justify your idea? Did you frame and phrase the idea in a positive manner? What kind of personality does this person have? It sounds like a dominate one. Most dominate people want to hear what is the bottom line problem and then what is the bottom line on how to fix that problem. If it’s a person who is a thinker, that person would want you to define the problem with some detail, and then present the fix with some detail.

For further reading, take a look at Power, Influence, and Persuasion printed by Harvard Business Essentials. You can also use the ideas to further your career. It did for mine.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[lacajun]

You've received great responses.

You do need to analyze your delivery. The right message with the wrong delivery is wrong. It will get you nowhere fast. You have the same attitude many young engineers have towards the older engineers and that is, "get out of my way old man" and "I am too good to do your dirty work." I find it entertaining but others will not. If you cannot genuinely respect your senior engineers, that will bleed through your words and actions. They will see it.

Senior engineers have seen a lot. They know what works and what doesn't much quicker than younger engineers do sometimes. They also know what's been miserably tried. They may know others will have great difficulty adapting to your newer/faster ideas. I am not bashing your abilities but giving you insight into senior engineers.

Also, industry moves slowly. It moves but usually too slowly for some young engineers. You may be one of those. It moves slowly for a reason. No one wants to be the guinea pig and have a huge financial failure to deal with. Engineers who do that often have halted careers until they change companies. You are judged on your ability to make good decisions across the board.

Sometimes, engineers, regardless of age, cannot change. If they cannot, you'll have to learn to live within their parameters for your job. Senior guys have the responsibility for your decisions, as others have aptly stated, too.

Since it is important enough for you to seek counseling here, it is important enough for you to talk to your senior engineer, too.

If things don't go the way you want, you can seek employment elsewhere, with a company known for moving faster and innovation.

Senior engineers generally have endured what you are. It's their turn at the helm. You'll have yours. I hear patience is a virtue.

 

[monkeydog]

Just want to add, what lacajun stated;

The senior engineer has had to deal with folks like ac1980 also.
He/she knows how to deal with ac, and it appears has been successful in shutting ac down -- "move out of the way, I have work to do"

 

[PhilBW]

I have been practicing engineering for almost 30 years now. I don't know if that qualifies me to be considered "senior" or not. But as I have moved closer and closer to being a senior engineer, it is amazing how much smarter the senior engineers have become. I have also realized how little I really knew when I was younger. Just because you think a method is better/faster doesn't mean it really is. I have seen a lot of changes in my career. There are a lot of very impressive tools available these days that we didn't used to have. Before we had all these tools, we had to have a much better understanding of the basic engineering fundamentals. (Despite what you think, more recent graduates have not mastered the basics like older engineers ahd to.) Rather than try to prove you are better and smarter than this senior engineer, you should see what you can learn from him. If you combine his understanding of the fundamentals, his years of experience, and your understanding of newer tools and methods, some day you will be a really good engineer.

 

[Yagonyonok]

I have a hard time imagining someone being dismissed from a project for suggesting alternative methods (not saying it doesn't happen). However, I can see it happening if an idea is presented, rejected, and then the original presenter continues to argue the point rather than accepting that the senior engineer has a reason for rejecting the idea.

I would suggest that you look at how you are presenting the ideas. If you are arguing and raising your voice, then you need to work on that. If your ideas are being rejected with no explination, you should try and have them explain why your idea will not work (note that in the meeting may not be the best time for this). If they are just flat rejecting every idea because it is your idea "and obviously you can't have a good idea, so it must be a bad idea by default." Then it is time to get out of there.

I have seen an engineer argue a bad idea until they are blue in the face. To the point of alienating everyone around them. It won't take long doing that and the senior engineers will decide it is easier to complete the project without your help.

Use of product voids warranty.

 

[ac1980]

a big thanks to everyone who responded, i really appreciate. my case is slightly different. every time i have had a better way to do it that i have suggested very politely and professionally (using sentences like "do you think..." or "you know! this is what comes to my mind. i will let you make the final call/decision"), i have been silently removed from the project, and someone else was handed over the task to redo again. please allow me to give two examples, which i believe will make my situation a little bit clearer.

EXAMPLE 1:
i am given a stormwater management task. senior wants me to calculate CN soil/ground cover data by tracing in CAD. i request to allow me to ponder over for a day, spend an entire weekend in the office (without charging), write my own code in .net to automate the entire calculation (from survey linework to CN values). step 1 done. aside from this, i ask the question about what regs to follow. the answers that i get raises suspicion. since i wanted to do my due diligence to the best extent, i call the state dep, the county etc, and get to the bottom of the regs we have to abide by (very different from the regs i was asked to follow). i put together a very polite yet professional email essentially summarizing my effort, mentioning that i have the ground work done, please recommend what the next steps should be and please make some decisions, and also suggested that we may want to get face to face with the regulators to get some clear answers on the "grey" areas of the regs. about a month later, i realize after over hearing a phone conversation that i have been cut off from this project, and another person is basically re-doing all the calculations (flows, volumes, water quality)from scratch. i decide to let it go (although i felt a little sad).

EXAMPLE 2:
project 2, surveyor gives survey at wrong geographic location. i am asked to move it myself to manipulate it into somewhat right location. i accept the task, but at the same time point out that this is somewhat of a liability issue, and also bring to attention what the expected projected coordinate system should be. i also seek clarification (again, very politely) if the survey scope asks the surveyor to deliver a DTM. this is a project where the precise locations are very important. i am shaky on locations because i moved/rotated the file myself to create the base file. moreover, i am asked to create DTM from the surveyor's contour. again, i accept the task politely, but do mention that creating DTM from contours may not be the best way, compared to creating from points/breaklines. two weeks later, i am in another project that involves hatching landscape areas in CAD.

i have gotten time and time again-
"we (as in this person and the near/dear ones) are going to take care of the design, and you can help us with....."
and to that, i have politely replied-
"i would be more than happy to do this for you, but please note that i believe i will be able to do these tasks more effectively if i have some idea of the design process (i am not blank on the design)"

please do not get me wrong, i would be more than happy to participate in every aspect of a project, and at the same time would want to learn something from each. i may sound like i am a bit anal and detail oriented, but that's just how i have learned about this profession in my engineering school: if i am not completely right, then i am wrong. and all i am doing is:
a. trying to come up with ideas to do my job faster and more efficiently, and
b. making the decision makers aware of all the aspects, and offering possible solutions.
now if anyone can share some insight and please suggest where i am going wrong, i would really appreciate. sorry to make everyone read this much, but wanted to sketch a clearer picture.

 

[ac1980]

just re-read some of the other posts, and wanted to add a little bitty more to above. i have always dealt with great respect with not just my seniors, but also my juniors. some wise person taught me the basic principle long time ago: "give respect, get respect". i just blindly follow it now. i am sure it is my fault, and i am going wrong somewhere, which is making this other person either not like me for my actions, or maybe not like me because i am pushing this person out of the "comfort zone". i just want to find out where i am lacking.....
thanks again to everyone.

 

[patprimmer]

You would show that you know what the word respect means if you formatted your posts with more consideration for the readers.

Seeing as how you don't do that even when previously prompted shows an unprofessional and disrespectful attitude which undermines your credibility in my mind and that leads me to suspect, also very much in your senior engineers mind.

From what little I can drag out of whinging in your posts it sounds like you have a lot to learn about respect and professional presentation.

While you seem very well aware of what you do know, it seems you might be very unaware of what you do not know.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[ac1980]

Aah...sorry!!
Just re-read and understood the "Shift Key" comment from Mike's post.

Sorry, i will try to be more mindful in my future posts. But pat, don't you think it's a little to harsh, what you said?

Anyway, I appreciate your comments, and hopefully I will be able to get something constructive out of it. Thanks much!

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I am stunned by the majority of answers I'm seeing here... not the responses I expected from the group of engineers I've come to know and respect.

Both Pat and Mike are equating poor grammer/typing skills with a lack of respect for senior management. Really guys?

Everyone immediately assumed ac was some snot-nosed punk disrespecting his fellow engineers, someone who didn't know how to interact with others, as if all suggested ideas were barked out as commands. Yet when he gave examples such as asking for their opinions on his ideas and reminding them it's their final call, the bashing and assumptions continued unchanged.

Granted, in example 1 I think he should have approached management before clarifying the regs with outsiders to avoid hurt feelings by those being questioned... but come on, are we sinking so low as to retaliate when our feeling are hurt by having our answers questioned?

I see some pretty disgusting replies in this thread, and it's the assumption the junior guy is doing everything wrong that gives the senior guys a bad name. The quick-draw and nasty responses I saw here with little information to go on should make the lot of you just a little bit ashamed for your nasty responses.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[ac1980]

Mac,
Thank you for your response, I really appreciate you taking the time.

As for clarifying regs in EX.1, in my defense, I would like to add that this was initially a "task" that was given to me, to finish, and bring back.

So the first step of my due diligence that i did was to find out the regs that I am up against.

Almost parallel, i was handed another set of regs, which prompted me to reach out to the state and county people to get further clarification, as to which one to follow (knowing what I have to follow upfront will not surprise the reviewers, and will save us design time)

When i did get concrete clarification, all i did was relay the information up the chain, again, in a very respectful and polite way (" please advise", and "you have to make the final call" etc.)

My understanding was that this was a task assigned to me, expecting to be completed, and I would not have been expected to keep bugging the Senior Engineer and keep asking him thousands of questions for every little thing. again, i may have gotten that part incorrect....

Please do not get me wrong, I am trying to learn where I went wrong from this thread responses, and not how to get back at this person, or take revenge etc.

Although my very first post may sound like that, but it probably was my frustration coming out more than anything else. That is why I wanted to follow up with some concrete examples.

I am very junior in my career, and am hoping will get to learn how to take steps moving forward, from experienced engineers on this forum, and so i deeply appreciate everyone who responded. thanks again!

 

[patprimmer]

Dan

We have only heard one side of the story. We all know there are really 3 sides, his, hers and the truth which always lays somewhere between.

I have seen to many times when someone relatively inexperienced criticizes someone with much more experience in that field is in fact unaware of some not so obvious pitfalls or did not see the full brief from the client.

It is good to think laterally, but it is also good to be very careful when questioning the decisions of a superior, especially one who has experience in your field and has a much greater overview of the project and it's restrictions re technical, economic and political details.

The OP presented what looked like a very one sided view, lacking much detail, written in a very difficult style to read and comprehend. I made my judgment based on what was said and what was clearly missing and presuming the worst for the missing on the basis of that is why it was missing.

Adding please and thank you to a disrespectful statement does not make it polite.

In my opinion, a young inexperienced engineer should not say Please I have a better idea than yours thank you.

He should say I am new at this. Can I run some ideas past you for critique so that I might learn what has been tried and how it worked out and why from you.



Regards
Pat
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