new to this forum, looking for some valuable suggestion. how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type? i am facing problems with working with an individual who gets to make the calls in projects (by virtue of position), and whenever i come up with better method/mode to do things faster/better, i get completely cut off from that project right after! its almost like i tried to push this person out of his comfort zone and made his insecured, and so being cut off is my punishment. this person expects me to do his "dirty" work at all times, and tries to keep me at bay from all design/engineering work. i would appreciate if someone can offer some suggestion.
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how to tackle this type 26
- Thread starter ac1980
- Start date
CajunCenturion
Computer
==> Both Pat and Mike are equating poor grammer/typing skills with a lack of respect for senior management. Really guys?
I think that Pat and Mike are showing that poor grammar reflects on a lack of professional presentation.
==> Everyone immediately assumed ac was some snot-nosed punk disrespecting his fellow engineers
Indeed, and the tone is set with the title of the thread.
"how to tackle this type"
What do you think is implied by "this type", and the choice to use the verb "tackle". His first question is then, 'how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type?' I think the initial assumption has merit.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I think that Pat and Mike are showing that poor grammar reflects on a lack of professional presentation.
==> Everyone immediately assumed ac was some snot-nosed punk disrespecting his fellow engineers
Indeed, and the tone is set with the title of the thread.
"how to tackle this type"
What do you think is implied by "this type", and the choice to use the verb "tackle". His first question is then, 'how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type?' I think the initial assumption has merit.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Twoballcane
Mechanical
A first impression means everything, it is not an engineering thing, accountant thing, or a lawyer thing, it is human nature. Your first impression will define you. If you want to be taken seriously in the corporate world or anywhere, act professionally. If I ever sent email or reports to my manger or customers (or even on this board) all in lower case, they will throw me right out on the street. AC, don’t take this personally, but constructive criticism is a way of life in corporate and it will make you a better professional if you learn from them.
It is better to be born out of fire than to be spoon fed. The lessons I learned from my seniors (now principles), managers, and even getting into a job that is a little over my head and making mistakes and getting constructive criticism is the best way to learn new skills and retain lessons learned. People who are under more stress because of responsibility they carry become more critical of their comments and decisions. On retrospect of my career to this point, I am guilty of becoming more serious with my attitude and comments because now I answer directly to customers and program managers who demand straight forward professional answers.
For ac, you can only worry about what you can control. You can control your ideas, but you cannot control the person who has the power to make your ideas come thru. You will have to develop your persuasion and influence skills if you want to change other people’s minds. Brute force will kill your career. This is also the same for your career advancement.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
It is better to be born out of fire than to be spoon fed. The lessons I learned from my seniors (now principles), managers, and even getting into a job that is a little over my head and making mistakes and getting constructive criticism is the best way to learn new skills and retain lessons learned. People who are under more stress because of responsibility they carry become more critical of their comments and decisions. On retrospect of my career to this point, I am guilty of becoming more serious with my attitude and comments because now I answer directly to customers and program managers who demand straight forward professional answers.
For ac, you can only worry about what you can control. You can control your ideas, but you cannot control the person who has the power to make your ideas come thru. You will have to develop your persuasion and influence skills if you want to change other people’s minds. Brute force will kill your career. This is also the same for your career advancement.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
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2
- Thread starter
- #23
Thank you very much everyone! I did learn a lot and picking up quite a few good ways to do things, from this thread.
Again, all you constructive criticism and opinions are much appreciated. Hopefully, I will be able to learn and put some of the methods suggested into action.
P.S: See how I learned to use CAPS while writing on a discussion board, to make it easy for other people to read? That seems like a good start!
Again, all you constructive criticism and opinions are much appreciated. Hopefully, I will be able to learn and put some of the methods suggested into action.
P.S: See how I learned to use CAPS while writing on a discussion board, to make it easy for other people to read? That seems like a good start!
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- #24
As an engineer who's still newish there are a few possible ways I would see your issues:
1) You have a senior engineer managing you who is inappropriate for that position. A good supervisor/manager/lead etc. would take some time you show you why your ideas do not stand up. Actual specific technical work is rarely covered in school on a multitude of subjects. This doesn't mean holding your hand as no project has the time for that.
2) Your pissing in somebody's cornflakes. From your example 1 and your previous grammar (which does set tone) it almost comes off as you were telling the higher ups that they are completely doing it wrong, this is the right way, and please let me continue the correct way; but it's your call. By calling outside sources after being told what spec to use to are severely undercutting your higher ups; if I were them and you did this and were wrong about it I probably wouldn't waste time with you on my work either.
3) Your example 1 could be taken the other way, that in fact they are using the wrong specs and then are dismissing this fact when you bring it up, moving you off the project to keep you at bay. If this is the case then do you really want to be tied to that company?
I'm not sure where your actual case falls (likely a combination) but one thing most engineers need to improve on is playing the political/social games and learning how to interact with different personalities. Learning how to interact and learn from that one cantankerous expert designer who normally doesn't waste time on anything but his specialty his way can teach you a lot.
1) You have a senior engineer managing you who is inappropriate for that position. A good supervisor/manager/lead etc. would take some time you show you why your ideas do not stand up. Actual specific technical work is rarely covered in school on a multitude of subjects. This doesn't mean holding your hand as no project has the time for that.
2) Your pissing in somebody's cornflakes. From your example 1 and your previous grammar (which does set tone) it almost comes off as you were telling the higher ups that they are completely doing it wrong, this is the right way, and please let me continue the correct way; but it's your call. By calling outside sources after being told what spec to use to are severely undercutting your higher ups; if I were them and you did this and were wrong about it I probably wouldn't waste time with you on my work either.
3) Your example 1 could be taken the other way, that in fact they are using the wrong specs and then are dismissing this fact when you bring it up, moving you off the project to keep you at bay. If this is the case then do you really want to be tied to that company?
I'm not sure where your actual case falls (likely a combination) but one thing most engineers need to improve on is playing the political/social games and learning how to interact with different personalities. Learning how to interact and learn from that one cantankerous expert designer who normally doesn't waste time on anything but his specialty his way can teach you a lot.
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1
- #25
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
What if English was the OP's second language? Grammer might still be relatively poor, but it would still give no indication as to the OP's ability (or lack thereof) to act properly. He could be a top-notch writer and still have an extremely disrespectful attitude in person. Personally, I wasn't overwhelmed with confidence in his writing ability upon first read, but the immediate response was, IMO, way over the top and uncalled for.CajunCenturion said:
First impressions, fine, I get that, but it struck me as being wholly unprofessional for what was sent back to him. Part of being a senior guy (or gal) is to properly handle the junior guys. This means explaining why a suggested method will not work, and doing so in a professional manner. If necessary, suggest how to change their request to make others more receptive. From what some posted here, the first bad idea or poorly worded suggestion would have the senior guy permanently shut down the junior guy and ignore them for an eternity.
I've been in ac's position, and instead of being told why an idea wouldn't work, I too was ignored, laughed at (in meetings with senior management, no less), and so on. Eventually things became so toxic in the department they had to bring in a consultant to do a sit down with everyone and work through issues. Seniors had just become used to dismissing juniors out of hand and treating them like second-class citizens. They weren't mentors, they were bullies. Think about that the next time a junior guy makes a suggestion you consider outlandish or impractical... explain, don't criticize.
I think it was wise of ac to ask for advice on how to handle such a senior guy, especially if there are so many of them out there. Fine, he may or may not have some more maturing to do, but asking for advice on how to handle the person/situation puts him head and shoulders above the bullying seniors.
Dan - Owner
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1
- #26
HMMM. Thought I heard something about ninjas in the parking lot yesterday. Please come to my office after lunch, Joe.
JUST KIDDING, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
DON'T FORGET: NOT YOUR ENEMY. YOUR MEALTICKET.
EXAMPLE 1:
i am given a stormwater management task. senior wants me to calculate CN soil/ground cover data by tracing in CAD. i request to allow me to ponder over for a day, spend an entire weekend in the office (without charging), write my own code in .net to automate the entire calculation (from survey linework to CN values).
IN A BLACK BOX METHOD COMPLETELY OPAQUE TO YOUR CHECKER. CAN THEY REVIEW .NET CODE? DID YOU VALIDATE THE CODE OR CHECK YOUR RESULTS BY PERFORMING THE CALC AS DIRECTED AS WELL? A MUCH BETTER WAY IS HERE'S THE CALCS YOU ASKED FOR. AFTER I DID IT I WROTE SOME CODE THAT MAKES IT GO A LOT FASTER! IF HE DOESN'T BITE, SAVE IT FOR WHEN IT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK GOOD- 'HOLY CRAP JOE X IS MISSING FROM THE FILE! CAN YOU DO IT BY 2:00?' 'WHY YES, I WROTE SOME CODE FOR THAT'
aside from this, i ask the question about what regs to follow. the answers that i get raises suspicion. since i wanted to do my due diligence to the best extent, i call the state dep, the county etc, and get to the bottom of the regs we have to abide by (very different from the regs i was asked to follow).
WHISTLEBLOWER'S DILEMMA, BAD CONSCIENCE OR NO DINNER. REF. ROGER BOISJOLY, CHALLENGER O-RING. A FRIEND OF MINE WAS BLACKBALLED, WORKS IN A DIFFERENT SEGMENT OF INDUSTRY NOW, I'VE BEEN IN CIRCUMSTANCES THAT GAVE ME THE HEEBEE JEEBEE'S A COUPLE TIMES. I STILL EAT AND SLEEP.
FORMALIZING THIS IN AN EMAIL MADE YOUR BOSS CRAP HIS PANTS- LOOKS LIKE A WHISTLEBLOWING PAPER TRAIL WHETHER OR NOT HE IS IN THE WRONG.
EXAMPLE 2:
project 2, surveyor gives survey at wrong geographic location. i am asked to move it myself to manipulate it into somewhat right location. i accept the task, but at the same time point out that this is somewhat of a liability issue, and also bring to attention what the expected projected coordinate system should be. i also seek clarification (again, very politely) if the survey scope asks the surveyor to deliver a DTM. this is a project where the precise locations are very important. i am shaky on locations because i moved/rotated the file myself to create the base file. moreover, i am asked to create DTM from the surveyor's contour. again, i accept the task politely, but do mention that creating DTM from contours may not be the best way, compared to creating from points/breaklines. two weeks later, i am in another project that involves hatching landscape areas in CAD.
YOU RAISED YOUR HAND AND DISQUALIFIED YOURSELF FROM PERFORMING THE ASSIGNED TASK AND ASSIGNED MEANS. YOU WERE REASSIGNED.
i have gotten time and time again-
"we (as in this person and the near/dear ones) are going to take care of the design, and you can help us with....."
and to that, i have politely replied-
YOU ARE LUCKY. SOME PEOPLE GET IT ONCE WITH A PINK SLIP.
YOUR BOSS IS NOT COMFORTABLE THAT HE CAN ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING, SPECIFY THE MEANS, AND THAT IT WILL BE DONE AS SPECIFIED. MAKE A FRIEND THERE WHO HAS A GOOD AND REALISTIC ATTITUDE AND HAS AT LEAST A FEW YEARS IN THERE. ASK FOR HELP IN LEARNING THE ROPES. DON'T BITCH, IT GETS AROUND, AND STICKS TO THE LEAST SENIOR (YOU).
JUST KIDDING, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
DON'T FORGET: NOT YOUR ENEMY. YOUR MEALTICKET.
EXAMPLE 1:
i am given a stormwater management task. senior wants me to calculate CN soil/ground cover data by tracing in CAD. i request to allow me to ponder over for a day, spend an entire weekend in the office (without charging), write my own code in .net to automate the entire calculation (from survey linework to CN values).
IN A BLACK BOX METHOD COMPLETELY OPAQUE TO YOUR CHECKER. CAN THEY REVIEW .NET CODE? DID YOU VALIDATE THE CODE OR CHECK YOUR RESULTS BY PERFORMING THE CALC AS DIRECTED AS WELL? A MUCH BETTER WAY IS HERE'S THE CALCS YOU ASKED FOR. AFTER I DID IT I WROTE SOME CODE THAT MAKES IT GO A LOT FASTER! IF HE DOESN'T BITE, SAVE IT FOR WHEN IT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK GOOD- 'HOLY CRAP JOE X IS MISSING FROM THE FILE! CAN YOU DO IT BY 2:00?' 'WHY YES, I WROTE SOME CODE FOR THAT'
aside from this, i ask the question about what regs to follow. the answers that i get raises suspicion. since i wanted to do my due diligence to the best extent, i call the state dep, the county etc, and get to the bottom of the regs we have to abide by (very different from the regs i was asked to follow).
WHISTLEBLOWER'S DILEMMA, BAD CONSCIENCE OR NO DINNER. REF. ROGER BOISJOLY, CHALLENGER O-RING. A FRIEND OF MINE WAS BLACKBALLED, WORKS IN A DIFFERENT SEGMENT OF INDUSTRY NOW, I'VE BEEN IN CIRCUMSTANCES THAT GAVE ME THE HEEBEE JEEBEE'S A COUPLE TIMES. I STILL EAT AND SLEEP.
FORMALIZING THIS IN AN EMAIL MADE YOUR BOSS CRAP HIS PANTS- LOOKS LIKE A WHISTLEBLOWING PAPER TRAIL WHETHER OR NOT HE IS IN THE WRONG.
EXAMPLE 2:
project 2, surveyor gives survey at wrong geographic location. i am asked to move it myself to manipulate it into somewhat right location. i accept the task, but at the same time point out that this is somewhat of a liability issue, and also bring to attention what the expected projected coordinate system should be. i also seek clarification (again, very politely) if the survey scope asks the surveyor to deliver a DTM. this is a project where the precise locations are very important. i am shaky on locations because i moved/rotated the file myself to create the base file. moreover, i am asked to create DTM from the surveyor's contour. again, i accept the task politely, but do mention that creating DTM from contours may not be the best way, compared to creating from points/breaklines. two weeks later, i am in another project that involves hatching landscape areas in CAD.
YOU RAISED YOUR HAND AND DISQUALIFIED YOURSELF FROM PERFORMING THE ASSIGNED TASK AND ASSIGNED MEANS. YOU WERE REASSIGNED.
i have gotten time and time again-
"we (as in this person and the near/dear ones) are going to take care of the design, and you can help us with....."
and to that, i have politely replied-
YOU ARE LUCKY. SOME PEOPLE GET IT ONCE WITH A PINK SLIP.
YOUR BOSS IS NOT COMFORTABLE THAT HE CAN ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING, SPECIFY THE MEANS, AND THAT IT WILL BE DONE AS SPECIFIED. MAKE A FRIEND THERE WHO HAS A GOOD AND REALISTIC ATTITUDE AND HAS AT LEAST A FEW YEARS IN THERE. ASK FOR HELP IN LEARNING THE ROPES. DON'T BITCH, IT GETS AROUND, AND STICKS TO THE LEAST SENIOR (YOU).
Twoballcane
Mechanical
What may be harsh to you may be what the right attitude for another. There are different personalities that you will have to accept if you like it or not. If you have ever taken a Briggs Myers test, you would understand your own personality and also understand how others tick. There are basically four types of personalities (then there are derivatives of those personalities) dominant, thinker, social, and nurture. I would take a wild guess that the ones who seem harsh may be the dominate personality (including myself). Other who has a holding hand spin may be the nurturing / social personality. The ones who have insight in their response may be the thinkers. This board is made of all different people which is good for AC right now so that s/he can get different perspectives from different personalities that may resonate with his/er own personality. Some say it is harsh, other will call it tough love.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
My response _was_ the second, less rude version.
Upon reflection, I think it was entirely too obtuse, because it took two days and many echoes for the primary message to be received correctly.
I don't read the 'seniors' as bullies, and I don't read ac1980 as an idiot either, but they've got a serious miscommunication problem going on there. It's not a language issue, either; ac1980's grammar and spelling are just fine.
My initial, shorter and very rude, message, might have done more good, after the OP cooled off a bit. I apologize for not sending that, because time may be of the essence.
Quietly relieving one of a project is an obtuse way of sending a message. My interpretation of the message: "Change, or leave".
Given that the message has been sent at least twice, I suggest acting on it immediately.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Upon reflection, I think it was entirely too obtuse, because it took two days and many echoes for the primary message to be received correctly.
I don't read the 'seniors' as bullies, and I don't read ac1980 as an idiot either, but they've got a serious miscommunication problem going on there. It's not a language issue, either; ac1980's grammar and spelling are just fine.
My initial, shorter and very rude, message, might have done more good, after the OP cooled off a bit. I apologize for not sending that, because time may be of the essence.
Quietly relieving one of a project is an obtuse way of sending a message. My interpretation of the message: "Change, or leave".
Given that the message has been sent at least twice, I suggest acting on it immediately.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Twoballcane
Mechanical
“how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type?”
I’m not picking on you AC, but every time I see a post that describes that the other person is the problem and it is not me, then try to find confirmation on this board, 90% of the time it is yourself. You’re just trying to find some kind of justification here.
If you have said “I am having a hard time getting my ideas across to my seniors, what am I doing wrong?”, it would have come over better.
One rule is to never slander anybody. Take them as they are, figure out how they want to be treated, and move on. Your career will move faster.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
I’m not picking on you AC, but every time I see a post that describes that the other person is the problem and it is not me, then try to find confirmation on this board, 90% of the time it is yourself. You’re just trying to find some kind of justification here.
If you have said “I am having a hard time getting my ideas across to my seniors, what am I doing wrong?”, it would have come over better.
One rule is to never slander anybody. Take them as they are, figure out how they want to be treated, and move on. Your career will move faster.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
Quietly being removed is their way of telling you that you are not in "the game." Like Mike said, their message is: Change or leave. That presents you with a decision, which only you can make.
I can't tell you specifically what you may be doing right or wrong but I can say there are some personalities that don't mesh at all. That may be your situation. You've gotten great responses and have a lot to sort through. You are bright and motivated so I am sure you will.
Playing the politics at work is always difficult. Some people are overly, overly sensitive and will seek revenge. Often you will not be able to identify them. Vengeful people can wait years to get revenge. I've seen it and it is ugly.
I don't create paper trails or email trails unless they are absolutely necessary and only you will be able to make that call. If you are a PE and/or your ethical and/or professional responsibilities are jeopardized, create a trail just in case you need it for an investigation. If a superior seldom to never answers questions, I treat that as a red flag and begin making requests in email. It may not help, in the long run, but you can provide evidence of doing your job. Do not send mass emails unless you absolutely have to. First, bring issues up in person with the relevant people(s). If that does not work, begin creating a trail and inform the party that you will be talking to their manager about the situation. Most people never want to be embarrassed or "found out" for any reason so delicacy is needed.
As my career progressed, I began to create more and more trails. I found them necessary because I was often blindsided by other engineers that had many challenges. They exist and if they have no scruples, they can and will harm you. If they perceive you to be a threat, they will harm you. I've not had problems with most engineers but the ones I have made my life miserable. I moved on while they remained. I believe that's the way they wanted it. Every time that's happened, management eventually saw the problem peoples and moved them to positions of unimportance so they could no longer cause problems on projects, production, and others. Sometimes it took years, up to seven years, for management to make those changes.
A manager once told me there were three "problems" with me: 1. Female 2. Smart female 3. Educated......and 4. Getting more education. He said, "Those three, uh, four things make people not like you." You cannot overcome others' character deficiencies. You have to understand they exist and deal with them the best way possible. The same manager told me the maintenance manager, a technology major, had been telling the Plant Manager, a non-engineer female, that I lied and did not know what I was doing. My manager did not defend me. I talked with the Plant Manager but got nowhere. She did not know enough to know who to believe. I had less seniority so they went with the maintenance manager. My manager told me during my exit interview that he "would never hire another good looking, female engineer." According to him, I caused too many disruptions on the factory floor. I never knew. It took management seven years to determine who did not know what they were doing and who lied routinely. Ultimately, there were too many players of bad politics for me to truly know what happened there.
Many engineers are jealous of bright, motivated engineers. Jealousy knows no boundaries. You may need to learn to channel your motivation and intellect in other ways that will benefit you and your engineering career. Don't let bad politics ruin your career. Find a working environment that fits you and excel.
Determine the kind of ignorance you can fight and fight that.
Buy a copy of The Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King. It may provide Pearls of Wisdom you find useful.
I can't tell you specifically what you may be doing right or wrong but I can say there are some personalities that don't mesh at all. That may be your situation. You've gotten great responses and have a lot to sort through. You are bright and motivated so I am sure you will.
Playing the politics at work is always difficult. Some people are overly, overly sensitive and will seek revenge. Often you will not be able to identify them. Vengeful people can wait years to get revenge. I've seen it and it is ugly.
I don't create paper trails or email trails unless they are absolutely necessary and only you will be able to make that call. If you are a PE and/or your ethical and/or professional responsibilities are jeopardized, create a trail just in case you need it for an investigation. If a superior seldom to never answers questions, I treat that as a red flag and begin making requests in email. It may not help, in the long run, but you can provide evidence of doing your job. Do not send mass emails unless you absolutely have to. First, bring issues up in person with the relevant people(s). If that does not work, begin creating a trail and inform the party that you will be talking to their manager about the situation. Most people never want to be embarrassed or "found out" for any reason so delicacy is needed.
As my career progressed, I began to create more and more trails. I found them necessary because I was often blindsided by other engineers that had many challenges. They exist and if they have no scruples, they can and will harm you. If they perceive you to be a threat, they will harm you. I've not had problems with most engineers but the ones I have made my life miserable. I moved on while they remained. I believe that's the way they wanted it. Every time that's happened, management eventually saw the problem peoples and moved them to positions of unimportance so they could no longer cause problems on projects, production, and others. Sometimes it took years, up to seven years, for management to make those changes.
A manager once told me there were three "problems" with me: 1. Female 2. Smart female 3. Educated......and 4. Getting more education. He said, "Those three, uh, four things make people not like you." You cannot overcome others' character deficiencies. You have to understand they exist and deal with them the best way possible. The same manager told me the maintenance manager, a technology major, had been telling the Plant Manager, a non-engineer female, that I lied and did not know what I was doing. My manager did not defend me. I talked with the Plant Manager but got nowhere. She did not know enough to know who to believe. I had less seniority so they went with the maintenance manager. My manager told me during my exit interview that he "would never hire another good looking, female engineer." According to him, I caused too many disruptions on the factory floor. I never knew. It took management seven years to determine who did not know what they were doing and who lied routinely. Ultimately, there were too many players of bad politics for me to truly know what happened there.
Many engineers are jealous of bright, motivated engineers. Jealousy knows no boundaries. You may need to learn to channel your motivation and intellect in other ways that will benefit you and your engineering career. Don't let bad politics ruin your career. Find a working environment that fits you and excel.
Determine the kind of ignorance you can fight and fight that.
Buy a copy of The Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King. It may provide Pearls of Wisdom you find useful.
The movie "The Caine Mutiny" is full of great quotes.
But the one that is
I have to add that the opening post created an impression that later posts have made me think you have set out to soft soap and manipulate us.
Good on you for trying but it's too obvious and if we accept that you did actually do a Uria Heep act on the senior, he will have seen that too.
To be good at this, it needs to be invisible and seen as genuine and not as an attempt at manipulation.
All credit to you for staying the course in the face of strong criticism, there have been those that have posted here with the idea they'll get a pat on the back and an endorsement who never ever did come back when their expectations were not realised.
If this demonstrates a genuine attempt to find a solution rather than just to have your way, right or wrong, then persevere and you'll get there in the end.
JMW
But the one that is
I have to add that the opening post created an impression that later posts have made me think you have set out to soft soap and manipulate us.
Good on you for trying but it's too obvious and if we accept that you did actually do a Uria Heep act on the senior, he will have seen that too.
To be good at this, it needs to be invisible and seen as genuine and not as an attempt at manipulation.
All credit to you for staying the course in the face of strong criticism, there have been those that have posted here with the idea they'll get a pat on the back and an endorsement who never ever did come back when their expectations were not realised.
If this demonstrates a genuine attempt to find a solution rather than just to have your way, right or wrong, then persevere and you'll get there in the end.
JMW
I had a boss, I said black, he said white and vise versa. I took objective stances based in fact and said as much, whether or not he agreed. My bad drafting didn't help, but I could see the office jujutsu as it happened. Shifted to another role, laid off at the next downturn.
No devil, no angel, laid off for a while, landed me a great gig afterward. I was well cast in the roll of Giles Corey in a middle school play, didn't end up badly, happy the situation is behind me.
Suffice it to say, I've been in a get along or move along situation. It didn't look like getting along would be agreeable, at least when it came to previously noted facts.
Ref:
Giles Corey
Miller, Arthur, The Crucible
Salem Witch Trials
Martial Arts / Aikdido : 'Good Ukemi'
No devil, no angel, laid off for a while, landed me a great gig afterward. I was well cast in the roll of Giles Corey in a middle school play, didn't end up badly, happy the situation is behind me.
Suffice it to say, I've been in a get along or move along situation. It didn't look like getting along would be agreeable, at least when it came to previously noted facts.
Ref:
Giles Corey
Miller, Arthur, The Crucible
Salem Witch Trials
Martial Arts / Aikdido : 'Good Ukemi'
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- #33
Late to the game, but I'll give my $0.02
The OP first post didn't read as an ethical question, but the post relating to 2 examples may need to be looked at with ethics in mind.
In Example 1, there appear to be 2 different design regulations - the ones given by the OP's supervisors and the ones found after contacting the State and county officials. Once the OP informed their supervisors of the different regulations he was removed from the project.
Unless the design regulations provided by the supervisor is more stringent than the State/county regulations; there may be an ethics problem at the workplace. Without knowing why there the OP was given a different design than what he got from the State/county regulators, it makes me wonder as a State regulator if the company is conforming with all applicable standards for the design. Note: it could be that some of the regs didn't apply, but it's part of a supervisor/senior engineer to take the time to explain it to the junior engineer.
Once I found out that the project had been reassigned, I would have contacted the other engineer and at least given him the calculations you had already performed. Additionally, I would have a conversation about why the different design specs/regulations were being used.
In Example 2, there seems to be problems by the surveyor and the method of setting up the coordinates on the CAD file. Without knowing what the surveyor did wrong, the safest thing would be to have the surveyor redo the work. If it was something simple (e.g., the calculations were based off a inccorrect benchmark and you needed to redo all of the calcs based on the correct benchmark), then it shouldn't be a problem; but if you don't know, ask. If the problem cannot be simply explained, another survey should be performed otherwise you don't know if Property X was surveyed vs Property Y.
For creating the contours, don't rely on your memory of the best method of creating them. If possible, have examples that show why one method is better.
For both examples, it would be best for the OP to perform the task both ways (e.g., the way the supervisor wants them and the way he thinks it should be done). In most cases, it's having the computer punch out a few more numbers/code which still gets the work dones, without the OP getting in too much trouble for asking the questions.
I'd also advise the OP to contact the other engineers who've gotten the work that was originally reassigned from him. Apologize to them about giving them extra work and see if they can give you any insights. Trust me, they don't want the additional work if they can get it off to you. Ask them why were doing things Method X vs Method Y.
If you don't get a good reason or one that is clearly unethical (e.g., nobody looks at these calculations, so why follow the regs; or nobody follows the rules); then I'd avise the OP to start looking for another place to work.
The OP first post didn't read as an ethical question, but the post relating to 2 examples may need to be looked at with ethics in mind.
In Example 1, there appear to be 2 different design regulations - the ones given by the OP's supervisors and the ones found after contacting the State and county officials. Once the OP informed their supervisors of the different regulations he was removed from the project.
Unless the design regulations provided by the supervisor is more stringent than the State/county regulations; there may be an ethics problem at the workplace. Without knowing why there the OP was given a different design than what he got from the State/county regulators, it makes me wonder as a State regulator if the company is conforming with all applicable standards for the design. Note: it could be that some of the regs didn't apply, but it's part of a supervisor/senior engineer to take the time to explain it to the junior engineer.
Once I found out that the project had been reassigned, I would have contacted the other engineer and at least given him the calculations you had already performed. Additionally, I would have a conversation about why the different design specs/regulations were being used.
In Example 2, there seems to be problems by the surveyor and the method of setting up the coordinates on the CAD file. Without knowing what the surveyor did wrong, the safest thing would be to have the surveyor redo the work. If it was something simple (e.g., the calculations were based off a inccorrect benchmark and you needed to redo all of the calcs based on the correct benchmark), then it shouldn't be a problem; but if you don't know, ask. If the problem cannot be simply explained, another survey should be performed otherwise you don't know if Property X was surveyed vs Property Y.
For creating the contours, don't rely on your memory of the best method of creating them. If possible, have examples that show why one method is better.
For both examples, it would be best for the OP to perform the task both ways (e.g., the way the supervisor wants them and the way he thinks it should be done). In most cases, it's having the computer punch out a few more numbers/code which still gets the work dones, without the OP getting in too much trouble for asking the questions.
I'd also advise the OP to contact the other engineers who've gotten the work that was originally reassigned from him. Apologize to them about giving them extra work and see if they can give you any insights. Trust me, they don't want the additional work if they can get it off to you. Ask them why were doing things Method X vs Method Y.
If you don't get a good reason or one that is clearly unethical (e.g., nobody looks at these calculations, so why follow the regs; or nobody follows the rules); then I'd avise the OP to start looking for another place to work.
I've found that the best way to deal with overbearing seniors who don't want to do what you suggest out of pride, is present it in such a sneaky way that they *think* it was *their* idea.
This trick works with senior engineers, government regulators, cops, wives, mothers in law, angry Wal Mart cashiers, anybody really. It takes some time to master, but once you do, it's one of the most handy social engineering methods you'll ever learn.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
This trick works with senior engineers, government regulators, cops, wives, mothers in law, angry Wal Mart cashiers, anybody really. It takes some time to master, but once you do, it's one of the most handy social engineering methods you'll ever learn.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
I like the suggestion by fex32 i.e. ![[lightsaber]](/data/assets/smilies/lightsaber.gif "[lightsaber] [lightsaber]")
Your boss is obviously a sith lord and he has already picked his accomplice, there is only one thing for a good jedi knight to do....
On the serious side, It sounds to me like your boss is not a very good manager. He may be technically correct for reasons you do not fully understand but a decent manager should not silently kick you off the project without sitting down and explaining the reasons to you.
That said, you will have good and bad managers throughout your career and you need to work with both. Do your best to learn how to work with this one.
Dont be disheartened by the grumpy old men.![[pipe]](/data/assets/smilies/pipe.gif "[pipe] [pipe]")
Your boss is obviously a sith lord and he has already picked his accomplice, there is only one thing for a good jedi knight to do....
On the serious side, It sounds to me like your boss is not a very good manager. He may be technically correct for reasons you do not fully understand but a decent manager should not silently kick you off the project without sitting down and explaining the reasons to you.
That said, you will have good and bad managers throughout your career and you need to work with both. Do your best to learn how to work with this one.
Dont be disheartened by the grumpy old men.
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
- Thread starter
- #38
I wanted to revisit this thread that i originally started, to give an update on this topic. i ended up taking this matter to the person higher up very recently, and it turns out that i am not the first person facing this!
I was hired to replace another person about a year ago, and i came to know that she originally left because of somewhat similar reasons. Now the person higher up did not fill me into all this, but it turns out that that lady had some close friends in the building, who i now happen to be in good terms and hang out with for lunch or after work drinks every now and then.
this particular (i will use my originally used expression: "ninja claw") person seems to have his "pets" who he always favors, that's what i gathered from others. i have to admit, i was very astonished to find out about this, especially knowing that it's not just me, others have felt and faced the same. i decided to talk to the person higher up shortly after i became aware of this background information.
now it has been about three working days since i talked to the person higher up (i spoke last week friday), believe it or not, i can sense a huge change in the attitude and behavior of this particular individual. let's just say now when someone says "design", that someone says my name right after
Honestly, all those harsh words from quite a few people in this forum did make me feel bad initially, but now it feels very good knowing that i was right about my opinion, my judgment, and my perception. i had narrated my problem in the best possible way originally, looking for valuable suggestions from people who know a lot more about this business than i do. but instead, i was met with criticism about my grasp of English language, and frowned/picked upon for not following the forum "etiquette" on how to write, among other things.
There is one valuable learning that i am going to take with me from all of this, to believe in myself, my gut feeling and my judgment at all times. so, thanks to all of you who actually did take time in understanding my situation, and trying to offer me some good advice.
As for the people with the harsh words and blind criticism, i do not hate you, nor do i have hard feelings. i understand and acknowledge that i may have started off in a somewhat rough note, as it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night.
i can picture you from not being too far away from this particular individual in my workplace. that's why my request for good advice to you fell into deaf ears, and you enjoyed more in tearing me apart and picking on other things than taking a minute to honestly understanding my situation, even after i gave you concrete examples. now, i have a piece of advice for you guys, as i wrap this up:
moving forward, please do take a minute to at least honestly listen to that young engineer, or that junior person, because most times, they probably do have a good suggestion or idea. and that is primarily because some of them do spend those extra hours after "close of business" browsing the internet, reading blog articles and trying to learn new things. and they do this because they are young in their career, and do have the urge and the enthusiasm to stand out from the rest. please do not dampen their spirits in the same way you did with me. they respect you already because of your knowledge and position, and believe me, if you listen to them, you will get nothing but greater respect.
If you continue to have this attitude towards your junior employees and subordinates, trust me, one day, very soon, they will get past you and ahead of you, and they will be so far ahead, that when/if they take a second to turn around and look back, you will be like a "dot" to them....
I was hired to replace another person about a year ago, and i came to know that she originally left because of somewhat similar reasons. Now the person higher up did not fill me into all this, but it turns out that that lady had some close friends in the building, who i now happen to be in good terms and hang out with for lunch or after work drinks every now and then.
this particular (i will use my originally used expression: "ninja claw") person seems to have his "pets" who he always favors, that's what i gathered from others. i have to admit, i was very astonished to find out about this, especially knowing that it's not just me, others have felt and faced the same. i decided to talk to the person higher up shortly after i became aware of this background information.
now it has been about three working days since i talked to the person higher up (i spoke last week friday), believe it or not, i can sense a huge change in the attitude and behavior of this particular individual. let's just say now when someone says "design", that someone says my name right after
Honestly, all those harsh words from quite a few people in this forum did make me feel bad initially, but now it feels very good knowing that i was right about my opinion, my judgment, and my perception. i had narrated my problem in the best possible way originally, looking for valuable suggestions from people who know a lot more about this business than i do. but instead, i was met with criticism about my grasp of English language, and frowned/picked upon for not following the forum "etiquette" on how to write, among other things.
There is one valuable learning that i am going to take with me from all of this, to believe in myself, my gut feeling and my judgment at all times. so, thanks to all of you who actually did take time in understanding my situation, and trying to offer me some good advice.
As for the people with the harsh words and blind criticism, i do not hate you, nor do i have hard feelings. i understand and acknowledge that i may have started off in a somewhat rough note, as it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night.
i can picture you from not being too far away from this particular individual in my workplace. that's why my request for good advice to you fell into deaf ears, and you enjoyed more in tearing me apart and picking on other things than taking a minute to honestly understanding my situation, even after i gave you concrete examples. now, i have a piece of advice for you guys, as i wrap this up:
moving forward, please do take a minute to at least honestly listen to that young engineer, or that junior person, because most times, they probably do have a good suggestion or idea. and that is primarily because some of them do spend those extra hours after "close of business" browsing the internet, reading blog articles and trying to learn new things. and they do this because they are young in their career, and do have the urge and the enthusiasm to stand out from the rest. please do not dampen their spirits in the same way you did with me. they respect you already because of your knowledge and position, and believe me, if you listen to them, you will get nothing but greater respect.
If you continue to have this attitude towards your junior employees and subordinates, trust me, one day, very soon, they will get past you and ahead of you, and they will be so far ahead, that when/if they take a second to turn around and look back, you will be like a "dot" to them....
patprimmer
New member
I see you still have some real hard lessons in life to learn. From your attitude here, I suspect your parents have a lot to answer for as it seems they allowed you to get older (I won't use the term grow up) without educating you about respect or ongoing learning or paying your dues or loyalty.
You have no idea how I interact with my peers of any age, but I will tell you, I treat them with loyalty and respect until I see it is not due to them, then I treat them as I find them. You I am sure I would not treat well.
Your OP by your own admission was drunken ramblings and that is what I initially judged you on and I did justly judge you in a poor light.
On my good advice you corrected that behavior and greatly improved the quality of your postings here and gained credibility with some, but now you abuse me for that advice that you took on board and used to good advantage.
Your last post reeks of the discrimination against the elderly which is a characteristic that I saw hints of in most of your posts. I also saw some mercurial change of position to add weight to your claims. Both these characteristics caused me to be wary of what you say.
I have picked up more crash and burn victims of your ilk than you can possibly imagine. Enjoy your little win before your lack of respect, loyalty and understanding of the limitations of your own knowledge comes back to bite you hard. I strongly suspect ninja claws will shortly be feeding out an ample amount of rope to you and he will sit back with arms folded waiting for the inevitable result.
I know you won't take this advice, but what you learned at university is only the beginning of your education and your failure to recognize that will be to your own detriment.
The most competent people I know are always looking to learn whatever they can from everyone they deal with and continue with such behavior until the day they die.
For myself I have willingly stood aside and given bright young rising stars a leg up when they deserved it, but never one with your attitude. Many of those I helped not only looked back but still come back for advice at times.
I am often quoted on another forum for a line I once posted. It is:-
"I will always feed in inquisitive mind, prod a lazy noob and blast a disrespectful bum"
I will always stick by that sentient.
The only words that come to mind to describe your attitude above would rightly get me banned from this site.
Ninja claw might have seen your true character and justly decided not to trust or help you. From your comments above it seems he does help and mentor others. You might ask yourself why them and not you. Look back over most of this post if in doubt.
My final bit of advice for you.
I see the two most probable scenarios as:-
1) As you presume, ninja claws was hauled over the coals as a result of your complaint. Maybe he was and is resentfully eating a big portion of humble pie. Do you want your immediate boss hell bent on revenge and after your hide.
2) Maybe the meeting went more like this.
"Enter boss.
Boss to ninja. Ninja how is young Alex Smart going.
Ninja. He shows great enthusiasm and energy, but he is a bit reckless and conceited and obviously lacks respect and loyalty, otherwise we would not be having this meeting.
Boss. Hmmm. I wonder. He claims you are discriminating against him and you resent his superior knowledge and are deliberately holding him back just like you did with miss floozy.
Ninja. Well you know how her last project turned out. We are still picking up the pieces. I really don't trust his judgment anymore than hers yet. He needs some serious mentoring before he is competent, but he resents guidance and is disrespectful and disloyal. I really have trouble getting him to slow down and heed advice. I really find it hard to talk to him and find his attitude distasteful and frankly I don't like working with him.
Boss. OK, but we have him now and you need to integrate him into your team as a trusted and useful member or we may as well fire him now. Lets see if he is anywhere near as good as he seems to think he is. Give him some latitude on something that won't get anyone maimed or killed and we will see if he is worth the time it will take to sort him out.
Ninja. OK. What if I let him loose on project Z. That will sort out what he really knows from what he thinks he knows. If he does well, lets send him on an ethics course and a team building course. He sure as hell could benefit from them.
Boss. OK throw him in the deep end, but keep a discrete close eye on him. If he stuffs up will fire him.
Ninja. OK, sounds like a plan to me.
Boss leaves.
A few minutes later
Enter Alex.
Ninja. Alex, how would you like to take a much more significant role in project Y".
3) As many here use pseudonyms, do you know who else is reading this thread.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
You have no idea how I interact with my peers of any age, but I will tell you, I treat them with loyalty and respect until I see it is not due to them, then I treat them as I find them. You I am sure I would not treat well.
Your OP by your own admission was drunken ramblings and that is what I initially judged you on and I did justly judge you in a poor light.
On my good advice you corrected that behavior and greatly improved the quality of your postings here and gained credibility with some, but now you abuse me for that advice that you took on board and used to good advantage.
Your last post reeks of the discrimination against the elderly which is a characteristic that I saw hints of in most of your posts. I also saw some mercurial change of position to add weight to your claims. Both these characteristics caused me to be wary of what you say.
I have picked up more crash and burn victims of your ilk than you can possibly imagine. Enjoy your little win before your lack of respect, loyalty and understanding of the limitations of your own knowledge comes back to bite you hard. I strongly suspect ninja claws will shortly be feeding out an ample amount of rope to you and he will sit back with arms folded waiting for the inevitable result.
I know you won't take this advice, but what you learned at university is only the beginning of your education and your failure to recognize that will be to your own detriment.
The most competent people I know are always looking to learn whatever they can from everyone they deal with and continue with such behavior until the day they die.
For myself I have willingly stood aside and given bright young rising stars a leg up when they deserved it, but never one with your attitude. Many of those I helped not only looked back but still come back for advice at times.
I am often quoted on another forum for a line I once posted. It is:-
"I will always feed in inquisitive mind, prod a lazy noob and blast a disrespectful bum"
I will always stick by that sentient.
The only words that come to mind to describe your attitude above would rightly get me banned from this site.
Ninja claw might have seen your true character and justly decided not to trust or help you. From your comments above it seems he does help and mentor others. You might ask yourself why them and not you. Look back over most of this post if in doubt.
My final bit of advice for you.
I see the two most probable scenarios as:-
1) As you presume, ninja claws was hauled over the coals as a result of your complaint. Maybe he was and is resentfully eating a big portion of humble pie. Do you want your immediate boss hell bent on revenge and after your hide.
2) Maybe the meeting went more like this.
"Enter boss.
Boss to ninja. Ninja how is young Alex Smart going.
Ninja. He shows great enthusiasm and energy, but he is a bit reckless and conceited and obviously lacks respect and loyalty, otherwise we would not be having this meeting.
Boss. Hmmm. I wonder. He claims you are discriminating against him and you resent his superior knowledge and are deliberately holding him back just like you did with miss floozy.
Ninja. Well you know how her last project turned out. We are still picking up the pieces. I really don't trust his judgment anymore than hers yet. He needs some serious mentoring before he is competent, but he resents guidance and is disrespectful and disloyal. I really have trouble getting him to slow down and heed advice. I really find it hard to talk to him and find his attitude distasteful and frankly I don't like working with him.
Boss. OK, but we have him now and you need to integrate him into your team as a trusted and useful member or we may as well fire him now. Lets see if he is anywhere near as good as he seems to think he is. Give him some latitude on something that won't get anyone maimed or killed and we will see if he is worth the time it will take to sort him out.
Ninja. OK. What if I let him loose on project Z. That will sort out what he really knows from what he thinks he knows. If he does well, lets send him on an ethics course and a team building course. He sure as hell could benefit from them.
Boss. OK throw him in the deep end, but keep a discrete close eye on him. If he stuffs up will fire him.
Ninja. OK, sounds like a plan to me.
Boss leaves.
A few minutes later
Enter Alex.
Ninja. Alex, how would you like to take a much more significant role in project Y".
3) As many here use pseudonyms, do you know who else is reading this thread.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
now it has been about three working days since i talked to the person higher up (i spoke last week friday), believe it or not, i can sense a huge change in the attitude and behavior of this particular individual. let's just say now when someone says "design", that someone says my name right after
Three working days......
A week is a long time in politics, as they say.
Three days is no time. It may have escaped your notice but some really obnoxious people, if we assume ninja claw to be of this type, have superior survival skills.
He is still there.
He hasn't been to talk it over with you.
His boss hasn't been back to you.
Your only criteria for judging the success/failure of your action (you need a metric for whatever you do, an expectation that action A will produced a range of results from B to F) is a sense of a huge change of attitude....?
When you spoke with the bosses boss, did he say lots of platitudes and then say "leave it with me, I'll talk to him." Did you have any expectations of more robust action? Did he promise things would be better? Did he say what would happen if the boss didn't respond? Did he suggest you keep him informed? (My door is open... blah blah...)
Yes, he may have had a word.
Chances are the "pets" have been feeding you and the boss and stirring the pot.
Oh well,......good luck.
JMW
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