I cannot bring up alternatives to CO2 without being mobbed.

[Skogsgurra]

PC has now taken over all discussions on climate and reasons for climate changes.

I try to keep an open mind, but Sweden has always been a consensus society and consensus is now total. Any other possible mechanism than CO2 is now banned and not allowed to be brought up in discussions.

What do you think about such a society?

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Yes, I know. There's no hope for me. Irresponsible, immature. But, that crane sounds fun. Never tried that. Done that? Ben?

BTW, are seat belts really necessary when driving cranes on the motorway?

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[patprimmer]

Actually yes if there is any risk of overturning or a deceleration rate of many Gs, such as hitting a very solid stationary object, like a large bridge stanchion or a cliff face.

One significant risk is if you fall from the seat as the crane rolls over, then it falls on top of you. I imagine such accidents usually require quite a bit of work with a shovel to place the body in the body bag.

Regards
Pat
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[Skogsgurra]

Thank you, Pat!

Valuable advice that I will head. Absolutely!

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[csd72]

I do agree with the dogma thing.

I was listening yesterday to LBC radio in london and the host was interviewing some representative of the coalition against climate change (they believe in the concept but want to prevent it happening). The host wanted to try and avoid the controversy about the concept and kept saying lets take climate change as a given for this discussion.

She got nothing but an irate blank wall when she suggested that maybe addressing climate change was going to cause more deaths in third world countries than letting it happen. Even believing in climate change I think that it is a debate that really should be had.

 

[btrueblood]

" Never tried that. Done that? Ben?"

Um, well, no not precisely. Have I operated heavy equipment whilst intoxicated? No. Have I operated equipment inappropriately, well heck yeah. Most public display: operated a large excavator in a so-called rodeo, but not with treads in motion, just using the digging boom. Large crowd gathered at a dealer's lot, and the event was a competition between contractors/operators, more for fun than any real prize. The excersize for that piece of equipment was to scoop a basketball (balanced on a traffic cone) into the digging bucket, then drop it into a 50-gallon trash can. 3 balls, 60 seconds. Couldn't get a single one to stay in the bin, they kept rolling off the rim, or bouncing out. At the 60-second mark, frustrated, I just dropped the boom on the trash can, flattening it. Very satisfying, even if the event managers just popped the bin back into shape.

 

[VEBill]

...climate change was going to cause more deaths in third world countries...

The gist of the message from Gapminder [highly recommended: www.gapminder.org] is that the world actually is getting better, richer and healthier. By the time climate change really hits home (assuming...) in 100 years, there may not be a poor "Third World" as such.

Policy makers should certainly be aware of these macro-trends.

 

[csd72]

Yes but if emmissions restrictions prevent the third world from developing then this will not be true.

I am not saying that it is definately true, only it is a possibility that should be explored and not just swept under the carpet.

 

[hokie66]

Yeah, csd72, not many are willing to debate whether climate change is good or bad. At the moment, this global warming is a pain here in Brisbane...yesterday was the coldest day in 95 years.

 

[patprimmer]

hokie

So it is hotter than it was 95 years ago. ;-)

With some sampling techniques that might be proof positive.

The tobacco industry and asbestos industry and even some parts of the road safety industry might be able to coach in such sampling techniques. Why even the pharmaceutical industry seems to occasionally lean in that direction.

I believe the cell phone and wind power generation industries currently have their executives on training courses even as we speak (so as to speak).

Regards
Pat
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[IRstuff]

Given that global warming effect being discussed is only a few degrees change in AVERAGE temperature, singular measurements are simply anecdotal. Nonetheless, the icecaps and glaciers at both poles are continually disappearing year over year.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[patprimmer]

IR

I think that is what I was saying in my perverse way.

Regards
Pat
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[Ron]

Millions of years ago we had an "ice age". Contrary to popular belief, I was not there.

For some reason, we began to thaw. We've been thawing for millions of years, at a rate that is relatively unchanged. Man has only been a factor in this change for a few hundred years, considering that the industrial revolution (1850 or so on) has been the primary activator of "pollution".

We ain't the whole problem...maybe not even a big part of the problem!

 

[IRstuff]

Regardless, we can either bury our heads in the sand, cover our ears, and say, "la-la-la-la," or we can try do something.

Given that nearly 40% of the world's population lives within 100 km of an ocean, if the warming continues unabated, there will be massive disruptions in infrastructure, economies, etc. There are entire countries that are likely to disappear. Their populations can either be allowed to perish, or they'll need to be moved, and that cost will be substantial.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[Skogsgurra]

...or we can do something.

Do what? Why? How effective is it? Who shall do it? Are we (yes, WE) prepared to do that? And, again, why?

Those are the 'forbidden' questions that I think we shall be allowed to put.



Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Ron]

Gunnar...exactly! In my opinion, we have little or no control over the "inevitable". It isn't a matter of "if", it is a matter of "when". Perhaps our actions hasten the process and we can control some of our actions; however, are we changing the inevitable from 10,000 years to 9,990 years? Who knows? We don't even know what the inevitable is....just the trend that we get warmer.

Ron

 

[zdas04]

This is where I hate that groups don't have stars. Gunnar, you ask the perfect question.

No one knows how many species go extinct every year because no one knows how many species there are. People hear about the spotted owl being at risk because of some human project and it is a CATASTROPHE. If it weren't for our anti-human, do-gooder tendencies then spotted owls and snail darters would have either ceased to exist or would have turned around. Who the hell are we to think that we can change that?

The climate changes. The world warms up a couple of degrees and we have the Renaissance and the highest AVERAGE standard of living the world had seen to that point (amd some people's home sites got flooded out). It cools a couple of degrees and we have the dark ages. No one has ever claimed that SUV's caused either of those events. They happened and will happend again.

If 40% of the human population lives within 100 km of the ocean, they really should evaluate the real desirability of those locations. The benefit of a scientific evaluation of climate (as opposed to a political evaluation) is that people have information about when to CHOOSE to change location. You can't stop change. As I said above there have been several times over the history of the earth that Canada was ocean front property and Wyoming was underwater. Stuff changed and now Wyoming is about a mile above sea level.

Let's say that so-called greenhouse gases are accelerating a change in the direction of climate change (an hypothesis that I find insuffecient evidence to support), SO WHAT? If it wasn't man (who is a part of "nature" by the way) causing it then it would be sun spots heating the oceans and accelerating the evaporation (since water vapor is the vast majority of the populaiton of greenhouse gases), or increased termite populations releasing more methane, or the unconstrained growth in bison population releasing staggering amounts of methane and CO2.

David

 

[patprimmer]

Just say, if for instance we can't change it, or it is to costly to change it, we can already be planning all new infrastructure based on worst case scenarios on sea level and rainfall patterns and air temperatures and build in the most appropriate location.

A new approach to real land values would probably result and therefore decimate the currently grossly exaggerated values in many parts of the world.


Hmmmmm. It almost sounds like global warming is a communist plot.

Regards
Pat
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[VEBill]

...emissions restrictions prevent the third world from developing...

I believe that is inherently impossible. The 3rd World will develop, provided they choose to do so (as apposed to allowing corruption, engaging in civil wars, etc.). There's no way on Earth they would allow any outside agency to impose continued poverty on them. Ain't happening, ever.

 

[BigInch]

If your house catches fire, due to a clear air lightning strike, should you ignore it, or try to put it out.

Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand’ ... Book of Ecclesiasticus

 

[zdas04]

BigInch,
What the heck does that have to do with anything at all? If you need an analogy how about--You know that people sometimes drink and drive so you have an ignition interlock installed on your car even though you don't drink.

David