I cannot bring up alternatives to CO2 without being mobbed.

[Skogsgurra]

PC has now taken over all discussions on climate and reasons for climate changes.

I try to keep an open mind, but Sweden has always been a consensus society and consensus is now total. Any other possible mechanism than CO2 is now banned and not allowed to be brought up in discussions.

What do you think about such a society?

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Not there?

OK - there was an umlaut in the filename. Changed to 'aa'.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[btrueblood]

Is that backhoe in the picture digging an ozon hole?

 

[patprimmer]

The ozone hole pretty much repaired itself within 10 years of most countries ceasing production.

Regards
Pat
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[IRstuff]

Interesting that few people dispute that we created the ozone hole with only about 100 years of using chlorofluorocarbons, and that stopping production and usage repaired same hole.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
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[Skogsgurra]

Yes. That is interesting in many ways.

When the alarm went off, we heard that it was too lat to do anything and that the damage was irrepairable. I even think that the Precautionary Principle was born as a result of that hole.

But it differs from the climate change a lot. There was a clear mechanism and not many other explanations.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[IRstuff]

Nonetheless, it was an anthrogenic climatic change, with much less total stimulus than greenhouse gases. If you agree to that premise, then anthrogenic global warming is well within possibility. The fact that we don't completely understand the mechanisms doesn't mean it doesn't work. We built transistor radios for decades before a "complete" model of the transistor was developed.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[Skogsgurra]

I do not think that your parallels hold for a deeper scrutiny, IR. You bring in so many loosely connected subjects and ungrounded assumptions in your arguments that I really cannot say anything about them.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[zdas04]

I read an article on the ozone hole a few years ago. The author claimed that since CFC's are significantly heavier than air, their ability to reach the ozone layer is pretty limited (his theses was that they would react with other stuff long before they got that high). He pointed to atmospheric samples that contained zero CFC's long before they were banned. His point was that the experiment that doomed the best refrigerant ever devised was to pump outrageous concentrations of CFCs into a closed container of ozone. It reacted (of course ozone is one of the most reactive chemicals on the planet), so ergo, ipso facto, CFC's are eating the ozone layer AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE. No relevant cause and effect data whatsoever. I tried to find the article, but was unsuccessful.

Ditto the uproar over DDT. Ditto the uproar over the Corvair (Nader admitted that the data in his "Unsafe at any speed" article was fabricated). And I have to say ditto the uproar over Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Man can and does do bad local stuff. Breathing in the LA Basin or Shanghai or Mumbai is hard on your body. Drinking water from the East River in New York or Nile Delta should probably be avoided. These are local effects. The earth is a pretty big place and has had millions of years to evolve processes and organisms to clean up messes (I don't see any ash from Vesuvius hanging around in the air, or much oil on the surface of the ocean from the thousands of natural blowouts that are leaking at any given minute). None of the things we do is nearly big enough to present a hazard to the globe over geologic time.

David

 

[KENAT]

Over geologic time, probably not, over a few human life times though?

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[KENAT]

Just happened across this.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/14/6857473-solar-forecast-hints-at-a-big-chill

Maybe we should replace some of those nukes with coal stations after all!

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[ewh]

Haven't you heard? The ozone holes were caused by HAARP! ;-)

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[IRstuff]

That would still make it anthrogenic...

TTFN

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[ewh]

Yes, you're right..

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[hokie66]

I don't think the ozone hole is "repaired" quite yet.

http://www.theozonehole.com/