I guess I'm getting old.

[HgTX]

This is kind of a rehash of the harrumphing in Thread731-110284 (which I happened to surf to recently), but I just gotta.

I was just at a conference. There were a number of college students in attendance.

The boys all wore what I'd expect a student to wear to a conference--variations on the theme of polo or oxford shirt, and khakis. More formal than they'd wear just hanging out or going to a party.

The girls, on the other hand...

Okay, it's not like they were wearing lowriser jeans with their thongs sticking out. But they wore outfits that, although fairly nice, looked a lot more like they were going to parties than to a meeting. And they wore that "I'm finally too old for Daddy to tell me not to do this" quantity of mascara that has been popular with girls and that adult women have always grown out of since about 1968.

And they wore flip-flops. Sure, new fancy flip-flops with little gold spangles, but flip-flops dammit.

And yes, I know, the face of engineering is changing and new demographics will bring in new looks, but this didn't strike me so much as cutting-edge as simply juvenile and clueless.

There were also girls there who knew how to dress--they looked plenty feminine, plenty modern, but professional. So it's not simply that Times Have Changed. (And besides, cutting-edge in engineering just means wearing what was cutting-edge a few years ago in less conservative fields but is now pretty standard. Flip-flops are NOT "the new flats", and a quick googling backs me up on this.)

There were no boys who wore nice yet inappropriate clothes (like, Idunno, silk knit T-shirt with more jewelry than one ought to wear to the office).

I don't really think it's just a matter of What Young People Are Wearing These Days. I recently attended a presentation given by a bunch of business school freshmen (age 19, mostly girls), and they were all VERY professional-looking. I guess they teach them that in B-school.

So why should it be the girls who didn't bother figuring out what they should wear to this conference? Is it lack of role models hanging around their civil engineering departments? Or is it the greater variability in women's wear that leads to more likelihood of picking the wrong thing?

Or is it just my deep-seated prejudice against anyone who reminds me of high school?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[MRM]

Part of it, I think, could be answered by pop culture; look at any celebrity awards ceremony and you'll see the women half dressed with their boobs hanging out 50% of the time. It's all about shock value, or something. By comparison, the guys with these ladies (with a few exceptions) are usually dressed rather conservatively with a sharp looking tux or something.

About ten years ago, this "relaxed" dress code for the ladies would have been fine with me. But now I have to admit that these women are not doing themselves, or other women, any favors in the grand scheme of things. This is especially so if they hope to be perceived as professionals.

 

[zdas04]

I've noticed this for a few years and I think it is self correcting. Typically I've seen the person in an office who dressed the "treandiest" (if that is a word) is the receptionist. When a professional woman dresses like that she will get asked to make copies or order-in lunch a few times and start dressing more like the big kids. I've seen it happen time after time. The worst is when they show up on a jobsite in soft clothes and aren't allowed in to do their job. That doesn't have to happen very often either before a trendy kid realizes that the job is hard enough without fighting that battle as well.

The "engineering uniform" is just not consistent with the latest thing and is self correcting--they'll stop it or start selling real estate.

David

 

[ScottyUK]

So what is 'the engineering uniform'?

Most days, mine is black pants; company shirt, short sleeved; no tie. There are practical reasons: black doesn't show marks and looks smart. Company shirt: if it gets trashed with work dirt, I'll get a new one. Short sleeves reduce the dirt problem. No tie: rotating plant and neck ties are a very bad idea. Plain stupid in fact.

The past two weeks I have spent entire 14hr days out on plant on a particularly heavy commissioning job. 'Work uniform' has degenerated into jeans and T-shirt to arrive in, T-shirt and boiler suit on site. Few of 'the brass' have seen me arrive this past fortnight, and even fewer have seen me leave. If I wore a toga or a loin cloth they would be none the wiser.

My point is: attire should be selected to suit the expectations and the conditions: I might turn up looking like a vagrant on a breakdown callout at 0200hrs, but I will turn up smart for an important meeting on weekdays. On the breakdown my skills count, not my appearance. In the meeting my skills count, but so does my appearance.

----------------------------------

I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[berkshire]

ScottyUK (Electrical)
I understand the UK has been having a heatwave the last few days, and you are wearing a boilersuit? That sounds too hot.
B.E.

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi Berkshire,

Yeah, I've been up on a steam turbine working on the hydraulic servos controlling the governor valves. We've replaced a substantial part of the turbine's control system as part of an upgrade program, and it has taken a lot of work. The turbine level was exposed to the blazing sun. It's tricky doing precision work while sweat is running in a continuous stream down your safety glasses and helmet peak. The ambient temperature was well into the thirties - a real sun trap with no breeze to cool things down. The guys I really pity are the laggers (thermal insulation specialists) who wear tight fitting Tyvek suits and dust masks, plus safety helmet and glasses or visor. Their work must be so uncomfortable!

I seem to be catching the heatwaves around the globe this last few weeks: on holiday in Toronto I arrived to catch on of the hottest days for over twenty years!

----------------------------------

I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[zdas04]

ScottyUK,
The "engineering uniform" that I mentioned is one of those things that you can't define, but you recognize it when you see it. I've spent the last two weeks in the field and wore jeans, fire-retardant long-sleeve shirt, and steel-toe boots (and it was 103F, 39.8C?). In meetings I wear a lot of kakhi, button-down shirts, and dress shoes. The engineers I see in meetings are wearing similar clothes. If someone shows up at a meeting in field clothes everyone assumes he/she is on their way to/from the field and its not an issue.

Women tend to seem appropriately dressed in a slightly softer version of the same thing. The word that usually comes to mind is closer to "sensible" than "sexy". Skirts that allow them to bend over to inspect a pump without concern about exposure, trousers that can get in the same room as a rusty pipe without being ruined. Shoes that would protect a toe from a dropped bolt. Skin is just skin, but too much of it exposed can be a distraction from getting a job done.

David

 

[casseopeia]

HgTX, I know what you mean. I testified in court on Friday. I wore a Dana Buchman suit (black with grey and pink pinstripes) with a matching pink sweater. Black pumps that pushed the envelope a bit because they were open toe. It was 101 degrees, however, so I figured it wasn't too much of a violation of appropriate attire.

The other expert, a young man in his mid-twenties, wore what I would call the engineering uniform, a blue blazer with khakis, grey shirt and a dark tie. The attorneys of course had on suits and the judge wore her robe. Even the Plaintiff and Defendants were smartly dressed.

However the twenty-something female court employee keeping tabs on us while we waited to testify was wearing a short, low-rise, see-through white skirt, dark-colored thong underwear, crop top and flip-flops. A regular Britney Spears wannabe without the baby accessory.

I don't think it's a lack of role models. It's a lack of good judgement.



"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[ivymike]

I work in engine engineering at an OEM, and for the most part our women engineers dress very appropriately. Our support staff (admins, mailroom, etc) are a mixed batch. A few of the youngest women engineers, and about half of our interns, fall into the category described by Hg. I'm not old enough be unaffected (not even sure that the age exists), and it's distracting to say the least...

 

[Ashereng]

If you are in a plant, site, field, PPE is the norm for us:
- Nomex (or equivalent: yes, Nomex is a trade name)
- steel toe boots, green patch, oil, and chemical
- hard hat, side impact (colour coordinated if you wish) with applicable decal and safety stickers
- gloves (leather or leather reinforced)
- high vis vest or strips

What you wear underneath is up to you.

In the office:
- cotton pants or good jeans
- golf shirt, cotton shirts, company logoed whatever
- no tie, no jacket
- casual shoes

This pretty much goes for the technical personnel.

The receptionist, document control, etc., they dress a bit more "trendier".

Oh, flip-flops are very common. I don't see a problem with that in the office. In the field, not so much. Office, what's the big deal if they still look nice? How are they that much different than sling backs?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[bioengr82]

Anyone remember this?

 

[jmw]

On a refinery site in Siberia the boss had his daughter come in to act as interpreter during the commissioning phase.

Young and attractive, she was an English language student at the local university, spoke excellent english and had a very high boredom thresh-hold... a week in a pump house with a bunch of engineers translating technical terms back and forth can't have been that much fun.

I nearly broke my neck in work boots, with thick socks, tracking through the snow to the control room and back, it was 30 below on a couple of days, so much so that very attractive though she was, in her jewellry, furs etc. I felt I had to point out that the high heel stilleto shoes she was wearing where perhaps a bit risky.
Head Honcho or not at the refinery, this was obsviously one of those

"I'm finally too old for Daddy to tell me not to do this"

scenarios.

Of course, I wasn't popular with the other guys for suggesting a more appropriate attire but the next day she arrived in jeans and sensible shoes.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Ashereng]

I remember when men wore hats, suits (not sports coats), long sleeve shirts, cuff links, and wing tip shoes with "a thousand eyes". I actually worked with them.

Times change. Get over it.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Twoballcane]

“And they wore flip-flops. Sure, new fancy flip-flops with little gold spangles, but flip-flops dammit.”

My wife resonated the same sentiment! My wife is the regional coordinator for her sorority and she is in charge for all of her chapters in a certain region. Once a year they have a week long convention and there are two formal nights that they have. Four years ago in Florida on one of the formal nights, some of the undergrads were wearing a formal gown with really fancy (with sequences and stuff) foam go to the beach flip flops. It was not taken so well. They actually sent them back up to their room to change their foot wear. This has happen for the past four years.

The flip flop issues is so serious now that the subject has reached the upper echelons of the sorority and have declared war on no flip flops to formal or business events. In the communications for the up and coming formal in a half a page rant in bold letters if any of the girls come in flip flops to a formal or business event they will be excused (booted) from the event.

So from the sorority’s point of view they are trying to teach the young girls that flip flops (of any kind) are not appropriate attire other than going to the beach.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[EddyC]

My mother, aunt and cousin would all have been better off in flip-flops than in high heels. All three have had some rather serious bunions for decades.

 

[epoisses]

Come on guys, there is only one answer that makes sense: HgTX, yes you are getting old! (well we all are)

Ashereng writes it's OK for engineers to wear good jeans in the office, heck you should have tried that 40 years ago!! You would have got the same reaction as flip flops are getting these days.

Anyway while paradigms will keep shifting forever, only one thing remains constant: the feet and the bellies that SHOULD be shown to the general public usually aren't and vice-versa.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

"...so much so that very attractive though she was, in her jewellry, furs etc."

How'd she look in the furs? Like Brenda Vaccaro in "Midnight Cowboy"?

 

[Ashereng]

epoisses,

I think you are making my case for me.

Jeans no good yesterday, okay today.
Flip flops no good today, okay tomorrow.

What is acceptable evolves, as does societal norms.


Twoballcane,

I still remember when it was considered "declasse" for women to work outside of the home. About the same time that sororities and fraternities were at their peak of pop culture.

Some things change, some don't I guess.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[HgTX]

T(w)obal(l)cane's post and a lot of google references back me up on this one--flip flops are NOT the new flats. Times have not changed that much. Not yet. And the "I dream of Jeannie" sandal (basically a flipflop with a strap around back) might be okay with a gown but not as businesswear either. (There's a difference between open-toe and nothing but a couple of little straps.)

And as I said, it didn't strike me that they were trying to make a statement (like the first women to wear pantsuits would have). They just didn't know any better, and didn't bother to find out.

And with that, I've put my finger on what was bothering me so much about those girls, and it probably says more about me than about them. It really pissed me off that these little baby dolls could feel so sure of themselves that they wouldn't even bother to find out what constitutes appropriate businesswear.

Excuse me. I must locate my high school and burn it. No issues to see here, move along...

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[graybeach]

I once worked at a small, and rather unprofessional, company. The bosses wife, not a young woman, would visit the office wearing platinum bleached hair, low cut top, short shorts and super high (backless) "candies." Lordy! I wondered if she thought she was giving the guys a treat.

Anyway Hg, I totally agree with you about flip flops. The thing about them is the noise they make. All that flipping and flapping just has no place in an office.