If not an engineer then what (& role of non-PE's) 38

[Binary]

As stated in the "Where's the respect" thread, I'd like to explore a couple of things:
[ol][li]In the view of some PE's, unlicensed engineers are neither professionals nor "real" engineers.
If that's true, then what are we? Many of us have worked far too long and had too much success to be considered interns, apprentices, or trainees. Many of us have graduate degrees and advanced theoretical and applied knowledge. We're something and I'd like to understand what people who hold the "not pro, not real" viewpoint think. [/li]
[li]Related to that is what you believe to be the role of the unlicensed "engineer." Acknowledging that there are many of us working under the industrial exemption, what is our role in the current structure?[/li][/ol]
My view is that we are professionals and we are *real* engineers. (BTW, if I'm not a professional then how come I'm an exempt employee?)

I see the role of the non-PE as doing whatever engineering work needs to be done for which one has the knowledge/skills/experience to do. I see the PE as the one who provides the oversight and approves whatever critical pieces of a project there are.

This is very simplistic, I know, and I'm eagerly awaiting input from those of you who understand this much better than I do.

I sincerely appreciate the time and energy you choose to put into discussing this. I, for one, will benefit greatly from the discourse.

 

[Binary]

Brad,

Good post. It's nice to hear the PE side from someone without a chip on their shoulder.

You are to be commended for getting your PE and I, for one, think it's something to be proud of.

Humility is a valuable commodity which is much too often overlooked.

 

[patdaly]

Brad, Bravo!

 

[IRstuff]

I can clearly see that licensing of drivers have made such a big improvement in quality of my commute.

and by golly I sure respect them all, too...

TTFN

 

[zdas04]

Buzzp,
Aparently your point was, and continues to be, far too subtle for my limited abilities to comprehend. I'll leave it at that.

Binary,
If I'm one of the PE's with a chip on my shoulder then I appologise for anything I might have said that made it seem like I have a problem with non-PE's. I was one for over 20 years. I had a personal reason for wanting to get my PE and I got it. It didn't make me a better engineer, it didn't make me any more money or any less dispensable to my company. I wouldn't expect anyone without a pressing personal need to ever put themselvs thru the 6 months of 18 hour days that I (personnaly) felt I (personnaly) needed to give myself an acceptable chance of passing on the first try. At the end of the day some one individual has to stand up and say "I was responsible". Before I got the PE that person wasn't me, now it is. If this sounds like I'm carrying a chip, then I'm not getting my point across and I'll just quietly fold up my tent and go to the technical forums instead of this one.

David

 

[BobPE]

EdDanzer...

that was some post....

I have that piece of paper, I make more, am happpy, get more respect, and much more...


Why dont you get the PE, aren't you curious to see if I am right or full of BS?

I will do what ever it takes to get people to take their PE....having a PE I can see how important it is, for those without a PE, I can understand how you may not get the point....

as for ego's, hmmmmmm....I manage LARGE ego's every day, and yes, the PE helps me to do this....

Am I better than someone else because of the PE...no...I am different than other engineers without the PE though...and you know what, it really makes a difference....

BobPE

 

[Binary]

zdas - No sir, David, you do not come off as having a chip on your shoulder. That was aimed at the comments from some of the PE's who've stated that non-PE's are not professionals nor are we *real* engineers (hence the title of the thread).

You have eloquently stated your reasoning behind choosing to *earn* your license. Beleive it or not, I have a lot of respect for PE's and what it takes to earn one.

I simply took (& take) humbrage at the arrogance of some who've decided that their PE's somehow make them better than the rest of us. In no way have I seen that from you. I truly appreciate your responses to this thread.

BobPE - I also respect the obvious conviction behind your statements and the respect with which you are expressing yourself. You're coming close to having a convert here. Actually, I've never really disagreed with your position, just the arrogance of some of the other PE's who are proclaiming their superiority solely due to their licenses.

I hope that someday circumstances present themselves to me to enable me to get the requisite recommendations to earn my license (that's what holds me back...lack of exposure to PE's but needing them to vouch for me - I have no concern about the exam whatsoever).

If you want to push for universal licensure, you need to think about how those of us without the references can get into the club, at least those of us who'd like to.

 

[BobPE]

binary:

I got heat for another one of my posts where i stated that we have to do something to bring exempt engineers on board....everyone assumed I meant something about the testing...but I wasnt saying that....you hit the nail on the head...you being in indusrty are not exposed to other PE's, and that makes it hard, if not impossible, to sit for the exam...It is my opinion that this is by the design of industry itself...I have used terms like brainwashing in posts referring to exempt engineers in industry...I have heard many a story from my industry exempt engineering friends that the PE is frowned upon and ridiculed openly in industry...discussions spurned on by management....I know this happens and it is evident in a lot of posts here....

My idea is to circumvent industry itself and make it easier to let PE's vouch for exempt engineers when they work together on projects or as character witnesses gained from professional organizations...most PE's are not against this, but you would be surprised as to the amount of industry opposition...industry does not want you to be a PE....That is the point I try to make over and over again....I have the PE and I absolutely positively know it would benefit you....

Where we all go with this is a strength of this site......it allows us to communicate and that is something that industry nor the engineering boards can stop....not everyone will agree with this, but hell, it has to start somewhere....

I have vouched for several industrial exempt PE candidates....It can be done.....

BobPE

 

[Binary]

BobPE, I'm still not clear why requiring universal licensing would improve the lot of our profession.

License or not, you're still subject to the whims of your boss and your company, are you not? Sure, you can refuse to stamp a drawing because it doesn't meet your professional standards but I can refuse to do things that don't meet my standards. At the end of the day, my boss can still get rid of me for no reason ("at will", you know?), coerce me into working crazy hours ("exempt", you know?), and generally treat me like crap if he feels like it.

How would having my license protect me from that? Sure, it would let me go it on my own but I really don't want to "be my own boss."

 

[BobPE]

binary:

right now there are laws on the books that require PE's to do things. Back in the day, we engineers wrote the laws, to protect the public from bad engineering.

Only 2 to 5 percent of all engineers today are licensed...Can you imagine if that was 92 to 95 percent?

Where we all go I am not sure, the book is still be written, but I will tell you, engineering is suffering...

If you company was required by law to only use engineers that were licensed, in my mind I would think they would treat you as more of an investment and less as a commodity, making closing engineering departments a more difficult decision.

If they did, then they would still need PE's from outside the company and you would just shift from them to another agency to do your same job for them. It takes engineering decisions away from them, leaving them with us....Will this make things safer, in the long run.yes...An engineers say would be final as to the health and safety to the public, taking this decision away from the accountants, lawyers, and plant managers.....One could still loose their job like before, if they are a bad engineer it will show and "at will" should still be the contract we follow....If you are good and required by law, I think the opportunities are limitless...

I also think licensed engineers can and would have more power over the politics of protecting the public. That power belongs to the engineers, and I think rightly so.

I dont have all the answers, but this is a much bigger picture topic...and finishing writing the book of the PE requires more PE's....

Take care.....

BobPE

 

[buzzp]

My last post (some will be happy):
Obviously there are some careers in engineering that some people dont understand. Namely, product design. There is no need to have a PE license when you have more safety agency approvals to go through than pencils on your desk. These agencies are in place to protect the public. They protect people and property from damage. These agencies, in the EE design world, are UL, CSA, CE (europe), and a several other agencies. Granted none of these marks are mandatory (except CE) but will greatly increase sales as most companies will not purchase electrical products without this stamp of safety. With that said, there is no benefit to having a PE license for a typical EE design engineer. I can not state it any plainer than that so if you can not understand this then I feel for you.
I am not against people getting a PE. Several careers would require the PE license. I have been checking into getting mine but have found since I have not worked under a PE for x years I have to take an alternate route through a state that requires zero years under a PE. I would be interested to see some stats on how many design engineers (EE) have a PE license.

 

[BobPE]

good luck going after your PE buzzp....You will find a way around the reference thing...Once you get it then maybe I can take your comments about not needing it.....

BobPE

 

[EdDanzer]

Sorry if I offended anyone. My post was mostly for Binary’s benefit from the point of view of an employer. Some of the posts come across with an attitude.
Zdas and BobPE,
I Don’t have time or the need for any degree or license, my job is to design, build and market products. This requires a general knowledge, but I can am proficient with SolidWorks, Cosmos Works, operate manual machine tool, weld, do hydraulic, electrical and electronic assembly, program and operate CNC turning and milling equipment. I have 1 patent, and our company produces 40 different products for 6 different industries. Currently we have 4 R&D projects in the works.
My point was each person needs to move in the direction that fits them, not be shamed into pursuing a goal, or feel bad because of the current position.

 

[BobPE]

EdDanzer:

I think I understand now. PE's don't make anything, and if there were engineers out there that did, I don't think I would use them because I couldnt afford what they made...What we are talking about is a bit different. Because engineers dont make anything, it is difficult for "other" peole to evaluate our performance. The PE lets us rise above "other" people having judgement on our activities and places this responsibility on the state board that regulate our performance.

By "other" I mean managers, accountants, lawyers etc, that are not trained in engineering and have no understanding about what we must do by the fact that we are engineers.

I respect the fact that you know when you need to add professional engineers to your team to accomplish tasks. Many out there do not know how to build these teams...

BobPE

 

[BennyMic]

BobPE(and any others who can help),

How is getting a PE going to help me as an Aerospace engineer? This is not a sarcastic question, it's just that you state that it will many times in this thread, so could you tell me why or point me to a thread or post that does?

Personally I think more laws should be added, requireing a PE or a technical person who is legally liable. Especially for "software engineering", when a software bug causes 100's of millions of dollars to crash into Mars, there should be someone to blame. I think this is going to be a bigger problem as we move into the "information age".

Sure this passes the onus onto the engineers, but who are we going to trust? The accountants?

 

[BobPE]

BennyMic:

I don't know anyting about you so I dont know what you would want to do in the future. The key is the future though. It may not do anyhting for your current employer right now, but it will broaden your opportunities outside your employer. For an example, you stay in Aerospace engineering and have the opportunity to consult your present employer at a much higher rate of pay for a multi year contract. Without the PE you could not do this, legally I will add. Who is to say what the future holds. The worst thing that could happen if you get your license and decide it not to use it is you let it lapse. You will still have it, not pay for it, but just be listed as inactive. If you need it, you pay the dues and follow the process and reactivate it.

Software programmers are a topic of discussion to see what to do with that profession when engineers are involved with it. Non engineering programmers are just code writers, and the talk is that this is not engineering. The information age will be a factor in the future however, it will not change the fundumental defination of an engineer, just the tools we have and the opportunities available for us to practice.

As for our poor martian probe crash, that was at the hands of a non-engineer converting metric units to english units. Hmmmm, with no professional engineering oversight as I understand it.....

BobPE

 

[rhodie]

Hmmmm, with no professional engineering oversight as I understand it.....

OH! SURELY a PE would have caught this! Of course, we all know that PE's are really good at doing the work of technicians and those they hire.

You make it sound as if PE's micromanage. They don't.
You make it sound as if PE's don't ever make mistakes. They do.

Dude, get off the high horse....

 

[BobPE]

rhoide:

I am not on a horse, it simply wont fit in my office...LOL

my words of wisdom that I live by are simple....

Its not that Im confident all engineers are right, its that Im confident all non-engineers are wrong (with respect to engineering)....

The mistake were talking about was made by a data entry clerk in an industry that is exempt....simple problem, costly outcome...again not a major concern since the public was not involved...but my tax dollars were, and I really want to know why a PE didnt have the ultimate say....why am I holding a data entry clerk responsible and liable for that huge waste of money, I want an engineer to be accountable....

PE's dont micromanage you are right....nothing would get done if they did. Checking and reviewing is not micromanaging, not in my book anyway...

BobPE

 

[Timelord]

My 2 cents worth,

I got my P.E. 30 years ago. I never worked in the civil field. Used my stamp only once when I did a floor loading calculation for a friend who owned a pub and wanted to use the upstairs for a pool room and needed the stamp on the permit application. It probably helped having it on my resume early in my career, but other than that it has been totally useless. I let it lapse several years ago because I got tired of paying the state each year. Tougher laws are required if a license is to mean anything!

Timelord

 

[Binary]

Here's a business opportunity for PE's:

Set up an evaluation program to provide references for poor saps who have the knowledge, experience, and desire for a license but lack the PE references.

Not sure how much I'd pay but it would be something...

 

[buzzp]

All this bashing is making me ill. I hope no one thinks I am totally against a PE because Im not. I did graduate from the 3rd best engineering school in the nation when I graduated, yes it is fully accredited and all the big boys hire from the college I attended. Heck, even with the industry being the way it is, the big boys are still recruiting from the college I attended in a big way.
PE is not required nor should it be for every industry. It would be totally ridiculous.