internal tank pump

[ebola]

Dear all,I have two questions:

1.Can an internal roller cell pump be used with methanol or other alcohol fuels? Or it would "eat" internals?
2.How much max fuel pressure stock efi injector can hold closed, without leakage or failure?

Regards
Andrius

 

[Chumley]

Those generic questions should be directed towards the specific original equipment manufacturer including the specific model (include the part numbers) components you have in mind. "They," most certainly will know.

Also suspect that alcohol based fuels may cause other problems with fuel system components that show up in the pumps and injectors but didn't originate there so you should have that information readily available too!

Chumley

 

[patprimmer]

As Chumley implies, it is not the pump design, but the materials used in the pump and indeed the entire fuel system.

Alcohols are corrosive to many metals.

Alcohols react differently to gasoline re gasket materials, an what works with one, might not work with the other and vice versa.

The pump and component manufactures should be able to specify what fuels are compatible with their products. This includes pumps, tanks, valves, lines, filters, regulators, sensors, fittings, nozzles and injectors (have I forgotten something).

Regards
pat

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[Andy330hp]

I agree with the above, everything in the system, not just the pump, needs to be okay for use with alcohol.

That being said, try to find a flex fuel vehicle to increase your chances of getting parts that are alcohol compatible.

 

[ozgurinal]

We have lost a pump in this manner generally the gaskets used in pumps do not suit pure methanol or other alcohols.

 

[WGJ]

My experience with a range of pump suppliers indicates that the 'gasoline' pumps are generally not durable with alcohol levels over about 10%. Bosch roller-cell pumps are typically built with carbon steel internals which will rust quite readily if they see too much water and one of the main problems with high alcohol content fuels is their affinity for water.
Another area which suffers is the pump motor brushes - these usually suffer from accelerated wear when run in fuels which have high alcohol loads.
I just used Bosch as the example, same true of Pierburg, VDO, etc.
Ford did a significant amount of work on their current 'gasoline' pumps in order to make them live in gasolhols. These are turbines rather than roller cells, but the same comments apply - carbon steels replced by stainless or nickel or chrome steels and brushes revised to improve degraded life.

 

[Chumley]

interesting stuff:

http://home.earthlink.net/~mgmcqueary/89j40_3.htm

Replace 3.htm in the above link with 2.htm then hit the back link for more information.

Chumley

 

[ebola]

I used to repair those roller pumps for years, this example is very strange, because somebody broke main body what is unnecesary at all. Bosch service guys are continuing to argue that those pumps are unrepairable, but I have hundreds of examples they were repaired for years in europe by garage junkies and used to double lifetime after repair.
All actualy I was interested can those pumps work with alcohol fuel.Thanks for info everybody.

 

[Chumley]

"I used to repair those roller pumps for years"

Well then, maybe since you don't think asking the manufacturer of the pump is a good idea and since the manufacturer pretty much says that the pumps are non repairable, which you disagree:

Could you clue us in to exactly "how" you repaired the pumps or document one example? Or is your second post going to remain just as generic as your first?

We would love to learn from you too!

Chumley

 

[ebola]

OK. The pump, roller one isnt repairable, thats right.BUT...most pumps gets damaged not because pumps are worn, but because of copper pieces(sorry my language, Im not fluent english)arround (where brushes comes to contact)are worn to the bottom plastic.Thats why pumps are loosing power and gets.....What I do is I weld back specialy shaped copper pieces and machine it afterwards.Thats it. Its often(50/50) mpi pumps are worn, not motor, so it is possible to exchange pumps and motors, and it lasts for long long time.It was very common business 10 years ago in east europe to repair those pumps, but now there are lot sold in junk yards for cheap and rearly anybody needs repair. What actualy bothers, that bosch distributors argue thet those pumps are NOT repairable, kind a special coatings covers those motors or some other b****....sorry. Nothing is unrepairable, all depends on you hand and mind.Regards, Andrius.

 

[Chumley]

And to answer your initial question more clearly:

"Can an internal roller cell pump be used with methanol or other alcohol fuels? Or it would "eat" internals?"

Yes, they can. Out of the box, they all work perfectly, but all fuels (or lack of) eventually eat the internals.

Now if you will suggest:

The % concentration and specific type of alcohol fuel you have in mind as well as any other additives (a fuel specification would work wonders here)

The specific use

The specific flow rate

The specific operating pressure

And clearly define the other specific fuel system components

Some of us dummies might be able to get back to you and tell you HOW LONG a roller cell pump might last!

How long could range from a few seconds to a few decades
depending on what you say!

Chumley