Kids these days... 14

[cessna98j]

I don't know what others have experienced lately, but it seems like a lot of fresh graduates looking for work just don't want to put in the effort to set themselves apart from their peers. In the past couple weeks we've had a few engineering graduates stop by our office to inquire about open positions. Of those few, we've had resumes filled with grammatical errors, people who come in with their moms, and job seekers dressed like they just came from the gym. Yesterday, we had a young grad stop by asking about work dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt wearing his hat backwards! To top it off, he was rude when we said didn't currently have any open positions but would keep his resume on file.

I would think that given the economic climate and lack of jobs for new graduates, there would be tremendous competition out there and people would be doing everything they could to carry themselves professionally and bring their 'A' game... I just don't see it.

While I admit I'm only 5 years out of college, I was wearing nice shirts with ties any time I approached a potential employer and made sure that my resume was flawless - and that was back when most grads had at least 2 or 3 job offers upon graduation!

I guess I'm just surprised at what I've seen in our area anyway. Are other people seeing much effort from the current generation of college graduates looking for work?

 

[moltenmetal]

Read my other posts- I'm not labelling anybody.

 

[rowingengineer]

I'm sorry to say but those who think cheating or doing minimal effort to get by in a uni (any) degree is a NEW thing, IT IS NOT. The old saying “p’s get degree's” wasn't invented in the last century, but probably sometime during the first year of the first intake of university students at the first university.

I will also admit I would rather hire a person that only studied for 8 hrs a day and got a degree without cheating, compared to someone that studied 14hrs a day and got the same degree.

As for dress sense, I think this is too subjective to be realistically evaluated. From my experience, what some people this is formal, to others it is causal. Having an interview person (60 yr olf man) turn up naked when I was managing a farm, I am happy to have cloths on for a start, in a perfect world I would like them to have shown some effort look nice (even if this is only in their opinion).

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

By that argument, the clean naked man made some effort to look nicer than his normal, dirty, naked man look...

I think someone who might think that a teeshirt and cutoffs is "formal" demonstrates enough lack of sense to disqualify him from any further consideration; one can only hope that he was trying to make some sort of statement, as opposed to being a complete idiot.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rowingengineer]

IRstuff,
Yes the man was drunk, he came back the next day, turns out it was his bucks night and his mates had dropped him off for the interview. Was a really good worker,didn't mind doing the hard yards.

I would agree with you about the dress standard if I had an advertisement that stated that the dress sense for the interview was formal. However the subjectiveness of attire for an interview is up to the individual. There is no dress code for an interview, you could ask 50 people some would say formal some say a formal casual, some people recommend you match the office standard! I personally would look past the resume formatting and the dress of the person, treating them only as nice colour paper on the book that I’m trying to read from this person, sure if the paper is not a nice colour I may not try as hard to read the book. The book I am interested in qualifications, verbal communication, personality and aims for the future in work, knowhow, common sense. This could also be a reflection of my area, a few guys come off the farms around here when they finish uni, really bright (and have some knowhow) but are not in the know for the interview, and they are generally dressed in jeans and a white shirt, resume normally written by hand ect. I however find them to be great engineers.


An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

We're just going to have to disagree on this. Common sense, plus every single job interview prep class, presentation, etc., make it pretty clear that you have to dress up for an interview. As with engineering, you make plausibly reasonable assumptions abouty the initial conditions. You do not assume that everything is in your favor; you do not assume the best case. Invariably, the simple answer is almost always "suit and tie." To come to an interview substantially dressed down from that is poor judgement, period.

If someone came in like that, I'd definitely question his ability to make sound engineering judgements.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rowingengineer]

I can agree to disagree.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[KirbyWan]

Personally, I think the right costume for an interview is the suit and tie. But I would not be offended by someone coming in in slacks and a nice polo shirt. Clean pressed jeans and a nice T-shirt makes me think their a little over casual for an interview and ripped jeans and an old Metallica shirt is right out.

rowingengineer,

I might disagree with wanting to higher someone who needed to study less. I think of myself as a pretty smart cookie, but I can tend to be lazy. I've been consistently beaten by people I felt were less intelligent then me, but worked harder. If someone is willing to study 14 hours a day to meet the standard that's someone I want to hire. It takes more dedication and that dedication comes from passion. This passion is something that has only come to me later in life. I'm just now making up for a misspent youth.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[IRstuff]

That's a line right out of a recent movie, isn't it, "Dedication trumps talent."

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rowingengineer]

Kirby,
I would agree with dedication trumps talent, but too often I see dedication to studying not dedication to engineering, these are two different mind sets.


An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

Hypothetically, someone who is dedicated to study could be redirected to engineering, but someone who is not dedicated to anything would be much harder to redirect.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[KENAT]

Except, they have no prior loyalties of dedication...

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[moltenmetal]

The only place where "dedication trumps talent" is where no talent whatsoever is necessary. In my opinion, "talent" in our profession is correlated with a kind of functional intelligence. Hard working (dedicated) stupid people are my least favorite kind of employee- in fact these are the people we try to identify and not hire in the first place.

Many great inventions in history have been the result of "applied laziness"- a desire to find a way to avoid expending effort on a tiresome task. This is as opposed to abject laziness- those folks avoid hard work by not doing any at all.

 

[PeterStock]

I heard on someone geting a job inteviewing in shorts and tshirt. It was a small bickle manufacturer in CA. A different corporate culture than most. Also remember Will Smith's character in "The Persuit of Happyness" dressed as he was for painting his apartment the day before the interview, gets arrested, pays off the outstanding parking tickets the next day and just makes it to the interview. He got the job.

But I would tend not to take an appicant seriously should he come to an interview in a tshirt. Now if he was dressed like that to drop off a resume and ended up with an interview, give him some slack.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[frv]

moltenmeal.. good point. I think the most dangerous men are imbeciles with ambition.

 

[MagnetDave]

I've had a few interviews. I've always arrived in suit and tie, and always been interviewed by guys in polos and slacks. I have never, EVER been criticized for being overdressed.

I've also never failed to land an offer after interviewing.

Dressing up for an interview never sends a bad message. Dressing down is a risk. Maybe you have the dynamic personality and talent to carry it off and make it into a great plus. Maybe the office you're going to will regard that as a welcome relief. But there is some obvious downside as well. There really isn't any downside to overdressing.

As an engineer, I have done this risk analysis myself, and if the person I'm looking at can't make this sort of evaluation on risk/reward, they are going to be working uphill. Manufacturing is plenty risky when you play it safe all the time - why should I add a loose cannon to my mix?

 

[KENAT]

Do we have to do the 'what to wear to an interview' thing again? Wasn't thread731-270177 recent enough?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[Noway2]

In respect to kids these days and motivation, a couple of weeks ago a kid in the neighborhood was going around door to door offering to mow lawns for $20. If you were willing to hire him for the summer, he would do it weekly for $15. Turns out he was trying to earn some money before going to college in the fall and wasn't able to land a summer job, so he got inventive. I hired him, as did at least one other person.

On the subject of dress, I was asked to interview one fairly recent hire where I work now. The guy came in wearing jeans and a wrinkled shirt. Throughout the whole interview process I kept thinking how disrespectful that was and I was offended. Our department head apparently didn't see things that way and hired him anyway.

 

[monkeydog]

So, was the guy that came in with the jeans and wrinkled shirt just off his lawn mowing job?

 

[rowingengineer]

The real question is he competent in his work?


An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[Noway2]

No, the guy who came in his jeans had been out of work for quite a while. There was a giant memory chip maker call Qimonda that closed up operations. The company I work at absorbed a few of its remains. He was one of them. One of the things that I kept thinking while interviewing him was that for someone out of work, and presumably wants this job, that dressing that sloppy was a just a really stupid way to communicate enthusiasm.

He seems to be competent, but my interaction with him so far has been quite minimal. I typically quiz the applicants by asking questions about a subject on their resume that I know something about. I then will dig deeper and present them with a design problem and ask how they would approach the design. I even tell them that there is no right or wrong answer, that I just want to see how they approach the problem. In one instance when I did this and wouldn't give up on it, the candidate actually admitted that he had no experience in this area and that the recruiter made him put it on his resume.

The company has since tried to hire another engineer for a different position. So far they haven't been able to find a qualified applicant, or at least one that doesn't need relocation which they are unwilling to offer.