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Kids trapped in a cave 25

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3DDave

Aerospace
May 23, 2013
10,685
Not a result of engineering, but one that might benefit from it.

The kids soccer team is trapped in a cave. From the graphic on the news it seems there are several pools that have sealed off the exit path. The children are supposed to be unable to swim, though I don't know that that is a special limitation. More concerning is that using scuba equipment might be too complicated for them; not only are they not familiar with it, the water they will move through is so murky that they would essentially be blind, deaf, and unable to communicate so that even guides would be unable to help them escape.

There is no immediate problem for them; they are now supplied with food and water and medical care. They have been without food for a week and will take a while to recover from that.

However, there is no known time at which the water will recede from the cave. I expect that there is insufficient pumping capacity to offset the rate at which it can be replenished. On the news they estimated weeks to months before the cave might dry enough.

Since they are in the cave, the passage was certainly large enough to get in and so there should still be enough room to get out. In particular full-sized adults have made the journey.

A thought occurs to me that it should be possible to pull corrugated tubes through each of the pools and then pump those out. If the ends are above water, there should be no replenishment beyond minor leaks for the pumps to offset. Using these the children should be able to crawl out, and will have light and audible communications to guide them.

The water is apparently only 16 feet deep at most, so the pressure can't exceed 8 psi. Anchorage will be required to keep it from shortening axially, but that should be a few hundred pounds to be useful.

I would estimate that a 24 inch diameter would be enough. I'm thinking of construction as is used for ventilating manholes, possibly with stronger wire.

If the tube obstructs the path for the adults, then they can wait the few days while the tubes are placed, the children escape, and then the tubes can be retrieved. If they are anchored against the cave roof by buoyant forces, they can be flooded again and then pulled back out.


Does this seem like a feasible way out?
 
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If you google "Elon Musk lashes out", it seems as if he doesn't do anything else. The man needs a new hobby.
 
I thought the submarine that Elon Musk came up with was a total joke.

Jerry J.
UGV5-NX11
 
I suppose I will have to grudgingly point out that Billionaire Musk claims that he was asked to develop the sub by one of the rescue team, and so when one of the other team members criticised it publicly he felt that was out of order. Do I believe that? Hmmm.

As to thing itself, it was a cigar tube with air tanks. If they had super accurate 3d models of every twist and bend in the cavern I guess it might have worked. Of course if it had got stuck then 13 lives were being gambled on one ego.

Anyway, let's celebrate the successful rescue, respect the dead diver's contribution, and move on.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Perhaps a new topic needs to be started - "Attacking Musk for Breathing"

The subject for this thread was to get ideas for what would work, not character assassination, even by those who believe it is deserved.
 
Hokie... the Aussie would have given him assistance at the task...

Dik
 
Greg - my understanding was that it was a Twitter fan who asked, possibly from Africa.
 
3DDave said:
Attacking Musk for Breathing

"Breathing" ?

Without intending to trigger-off WWIII, is that really an accurate word choice ?

:)
 
Re: Twitter.
I hope that Mr. Musk's rants are not the opening salvo of a campaign for higher political office.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
It worked for the last guy...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
And if they did change the Constitution, he'd have to stand in line behind the likes of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jennifer Granholm...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
I have no doubt that Elon donates to charities and political parties.
I respect that Elon tried to help with a solution and spent a lot of money trying to help.
Up until then, Elon's efforts deserve respect and thanks.
Unfortunately, I understand that the sub arrived when the rescue was in progress.
That is probably when things started to go sideways.
I surmise that the dive team (including the Brit diver with years of experience in that cave) decided to continue with the rescue plan that was working and declined the sub.
Given that a pump failed and the last diver made it out against fast rising water is a strong indication that the decision to continue with a plan that was working rather than take time out to test a new method was the correct action.
There were probably some harsh words and heated tempers when Elon was told that his sub was not needed.
That's when it started to go sideways.
The Brit was probably exhausted and short tempered and still upset from the confrontation with Elon.
Telling Elon to shove his sub where it hurts, (stuff it in your nose, that's gotta hurt) was an understandable departure from good manners.
There are a lot of ways that Elon could have responded some more classy than others, some more acceptable than others.
Silence may have been a wise choice.
I see Elon's slur as crossing a line.
A personal attack against an individual by a figure with the public profile, influence and resources of Elon is the act of a bully.
I would like to say to Elon:
"Thank you for trying to help.
However your slur against one of the rescuers was the unacceptable act of an spoiled egotistical bully.
I respect your technical achievements.
As a person I have no respect for you whatsoever.
I don't much like bullies."
p.s.
"If you don't like this, shove it up your nose!

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
waross: it raises the question... how can someone so smart be so stupid...

Dik
 
waross -

From a Sun article :

Two British divers were the first to discover the desperate lads trapped 2.5miles down the Tham Luang cave system in Chiang Rai, Northern Thailand.

The boys, from the Wild Boars football club, got lost during a visit to the notorious tunnel network with their coach on June 23.

It was not until July 2, nine days later, that a massive search operation to track down the missing team ended in joy; they were all found alive.

Brit scuba heroes Richard Stanton and John Volanthen made the euphoric discovery after bravely traversing the labyrinth of caverns and passages.

What other British Divers were involved in the rescue?

Robert Harper
Robert Harper, 70, is a cave diving expert who oversaw the mission to locate the lost boys.
He was thanked by Thai authorities and given a hero's send-off as he departed.
Sports minister Weerasak Kowsurat said he showed "dedication to duty and professionalism".

Chris Jewell
Chris Jewell is a member of the Cave Diving Group, Britain's oldest association of underground divers.

Jason Mallison
Mr Mallison is also a member of the Cave Diving Group.
He joined Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen in 2010 when they broke the record for the longest ever cave dive - swimming 4.4miles.

Tim Acton
Tim Acton, 39, moved from his native Essex to run a holiday complex in Thailand with his wife, Took.
He was inside the cave system several times during the operation.


Not one mention of anyone thanking Unsworth.

Added - Same thing here: which even slights Unsworth's claim about the Thai's needing his expert experience:

"Rescuers also turned to the villagers for local knowledge. The Thai Navy Seals found a boy, a Wild Boar member who happened to have skipped the cave expedition. He recalled a place in the complex they'd visited before - called Pattaya Beach."
 
It's a terrible shame that one of the divers lost his life. Other than that, a great story and adventure.

Dik
 
Musk, billionaire CEO status notwithstanding, made a horrible unfounded accusation. There is no defense for it. None. It is going to be fantastic when Unsworth gets a payday for this via the libel suit. He was instrumental in the recovery of the boys!

Even when they could talk to each other, searchers did not know where to look or how to find their way. The SEALs would find themselves essentially lost after hours-long dives, with still no sign of the young boys. On June 27, fast-rising waters filled the cave — so fast that it was the equivalent of a house flooding in 10 minutes.

“Our three hours of draining became nothing,” the Thai navy commander said.

They found help from an unlikely expert.

Vernon Unsworth, a British insurance consultant and hobbyist spelunker, has made an obsession of the Tham Luang cave system. He had explored miles of it over a decade, planning his travels between England and Thailand around the rainy season. He was convinced that the Thais were looking in the wrong place. Unsworth had strong views on where to look and who should be doing the looking.

“Time is running out,” he wrote in a letter to the governor, according to Unsworth’s wife. He listed the names of three British cave divers he pegged as the best in the world. “Please contact them through UK Embassy ASAP.”

The Thai government agreed.

Within days, his Brits were in the cave, and a search that most had given up as futile took an electrifying turn.

And from June 26 (3 days after they went missing):
Information from Mr.Vern Unsworth a western caving explorer who has extensively explored caves in Thailand and satellite images of the mountainous terrain of Tham Luang-Khun Nam Nang Non cave have been supplied by the Department of Mineral Resources to seal rescue teams which will help in the operations to search and rescue 13 school footballers and coach trapped inside the cave.

Mr Chaiyaporn Siripornpaibul, a caving expert of the Mineral Resourdces Department, admitted on Tuesday that the department had very limited information about the Tham Luang-Khun Nam Nang Non only about one kilometer into the cave from its entrance and, therefore, had to rely on the information of a western caving expert.

The cave information, satellite images and map will help in the search for ways to get into the cave instead of through the cave entrance which is obstructed by flooding, said Chaiyaporn.
British caver Vern Unsworth, 63, who lives in Chiang Rai, was instrumental in linking up the Thai authorities with the British experts. "I was actually scheduled to go into the cave on June 24 anyway," Unsworth told CNN in an interview in Thailand."I got all my gear ready, and I was going in to do a solo trip just to see what the water levels were like. And I got called out at 2 o'clock Sunday morning, and I was there for the whole 17 days."

Unsworth's role in the rescue was also pivotal because of his intimate knowledge of the Tham Luang cave system, which he describes as his "second home" after spending the past six years exploring it.

It was Unsworth who initally pinpointed where he thought the Wild Boars team would be waiting. They were found 200 meters away from that point, which was "probably around about the best place they could have been," he said.

In the early days of the search operation, Unsworth said he quickly realized that outside expertise was required, and advised the Thai authorities to bring in specialist cave divers who had dealt with similar rescues in the past.
"It was a race against time," he said. "They needed world class divers and that's what we got."

He was the first one to suggest calling for help from Volanthen, Stanton and Robert Harper -- who arrived a few days into the search on June 27.

"(They went) straight into the cave," Unsworth said. "That's when things started to really happen."
He had been involved in cave rescue operations in the UK before, but "nothing on this scale."
 
FLASH! MORE FAKE NEWS FROM CNN.

CNN said:
Link
British diver helped pinpoint boy's location
British caver Vern Unsworth, 63, who lives in Chiang Rai, was instrumental in linking up the Thai authorities with the British experts. "I was actually scheduled to go into the cave on June 24 anyway," Unsworth told CNN in an interview in Thailand."I got all my gear ready, and I was going in to do a solo trip just to see what the water levels were like. And I got called out at 2 o'clock Sunday morning, and I was there for the whole 17 days."
Unsworth's role in the rescue was also pivotal because of his intimate knowledge of the Tham Luang cave system, which he describes as his "second home" after spending the past six years exploring it.
He had been involved in cave rescue operations in the UK before, but "nothing on this scale."
It was Unsworth who initally pinpointed where he thought the Wild Boars team would be waiting. They were found 200 meters away from that point, which was "probably around about the best place they could have been," he said.
The flooding of the cave could not have been predicted, he said, as the floodwater had come through three to four weeks earlier than last year.
"These kids were just totally unlucky. Wrong place, wrong time," he said. "It happened very quick. You can't blame the coach, you can't blame the kids."

Race against time
In the early days of the search operation, Unsworth said he quickly realized that outside expertise was required, and advised the Thai authorities to bring in specialist cave divers who had dealt with similar rescues in the past.
"It was a race against time," he said. "They needed world class divers and that's what we got."
He was the first one to suggest calling for help from Volanthen, Stanton and Robert Harper -- who arrived a few days into the search on June 27.
"(They went) straight into the cave," Unsworth said. "That's when things started to really happen."
.........
Chatting to CNN in a leafy café north of Chiang Rai, Unsworth appeared exhausted physically and emotionally, and is still reeling from the outcome of the rescue.

WILL THE FAKE NEWS NEVER STOP?
THE SUN UK EDITION said:
UNSUNG HERO Who is Vernon Unsworth? Thai cave rescue diver called ‘paedo guy’ by Elon Musk
The Brit caver co-led the operation to save the schoolboys from Tham Luang cave

Who is Vernon Unsworth?
Vernon Unsworth, is a 63-year-old financial broker from St Albans, Hertfordshire.
He discovered his love for exploring cave systems in the Yorkshire Dales.
The experienced Brit caver now lives in Chiang Rai, Thailand.
Before the Thai rescue operation, he had been in a number of rescue efforts in the UK, but "nothing on this scale"
........
Mr Unsworth was the first foreign rescuer at the scene and played a crucial role in saving the 12 boys and their football coach.
He spent years exploring the Tham Luang cave system where the boys were trapped for 17 days, meaning he had expert knowledge that was vital to the rescue.

hmmm is this the same site? :
Where have I seen that site?


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
waross - "Unsworth told" and an article - after his CNN interview.

I've looked for anything that is independent of the CNN interview that shows he has done anything or has been acknowledged by anyone besides his own statements.

I would have expected that the divers who arrived would have mentioned that they were stirred to action by his personal call for help or thanked him profusely for the maps that he provided.

Aside from the previous survey the only map I saw was from the diver's sketches of what they encountered.

It seems like a revisionist history placing Unsworth front and center after the CNN interview and after Musk called him out ou it.

The first thing I found when he first came up was a photo of him putting tape on the split sole of his boot.

But it's like he vanishes completely between the day the Thai rescue team arrives and the CNN interview where he goes after Musk. The only direct source of information about his role has been him.
 
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