Master's Degree 10

[Logan82]

Hi!

Are master's degrees in structural engineering useful in engineering firms?

Which is best for engineering firms, a master's degree with or without thesis?

 

[jdgengineer]

This question probably depends where you are and what your career goals are. In my experience, a lot of large west coast engineering firms prefer / require a master's degree. I'm not sure about other areas of the country or world. I think it is often less critical for smaller engineering firms.

Personally, I'm very thankful I obtained one. I think it really expanded my knowledge base with seismic design and "why" you do things instead of "how" to do things which is what my bachelor's was more focused on.

I don't know if very many employees would see a difference between a thesis or non-thesis program.

 

[JLNJ]

I’ve seen plenty of young engineers with Master’s degrees who still don’t know how to design a structure. Or, worse yet, THINK they know but are reckless in their own ignorance (i.e “I have an MSCE I must be a good engineer and I certainly am quite qualified to do whatever.”)

Also very important (maybe MOST important in our profession) is how to put together a good, complete set of construction documents. If you can’t effectively communicate the Owner’s needs and the design via the written word and the requisite plans and details, if you can’t write a tight spec, and if you can’t foresee problems and work with contractors, your usefulness in a consulting firm is limited, no matter how many degrees you have.

I’m sure you don’t learn that in school.

 

[271828]

Most of the firms I'm familiar with require an MS.

BS programs are cutting credit hours and requiring more gen ed classes, so graduates have little opportunity to take structural engineering courses. Typically they're lucky to have one class each in analysis, steel, and concrete.

Coming out of their MS, they've been able to take 9-10 more classes, most likely all in structural engineering and mechanics. They are still not "engineers" at that point but their fundamental technical background should be a lot better.

I think this is pretty important. Looking back over the years, I have a lot shallower knowledge of the subjects that I learned through ojt only, and did not have a course in.

 

[271828]

...Also very important (maybe MOST important in our profession) is how to put together a good, complete set of construction documents. If you can’t effectively communicate the Owner’s needs and the design via the written word and the requisite plans and details, if you can’t write a tight spec, and if you can’t foresee problems and work with contractors, your usefulness in a consulting firm is limited, no matter how many degrees you have.

I’m sure you don’t learn that in school.

That's why a MS program is useful. In a BS-only scenario, there's no room to get into anything other than the bare fundamentals like calculations bending moments and basic strengths.

I doubt it's typical, but there are MS programs that intro the practical issues you mentioned. It takes a long time to learn how to put together a good set of documents. This isn't going to happen in school.

It takes PEs years to get good at producing these.

There is also a practical impediment to any serious coursework on practical issues. Most engineering professors have not spent much time outside the university system, so they can't cover those practical issues in depth.

 

[271828]

...Which is best for engineering firms, a master's degree with or without thesis?

When I was in my MS program, a thesis was required, so I was bent toward thinking it's important. For the last few years, I have been working at a university where the thesis option is rarely chosen. Our students have had no problem landing great positions at some of the biggest name firms. From that, I've concluded that thesis is unimportant at least from the perspective of employment potential.

Reasons to do a thesis:

Thesis research results in the student becoming knowledgeable in the narrow area of his or her thesis. That could be useful depending on the career path.

IMO, the main reason to do a thesis is to gain writing experience. By the time a student finishes a thesis, he or she will probably be a decent writer. A thesis is archived, so the advising faculty member will review and edit until the writing is scholarly. This is a fairly stressful process.

A thesis is much more beneficial to the department and faculty -- FWIW LOL. A thesis is often substantial enough to result in a journal publication or support a research grant proposal. These are the ultimate priorities of the university. A non-thesis MS results in a higher tally of MS grads and tuition being paid. A thesis MS does that too, plus the support for research.

 

[dauwerda]

I don't know if I would say a master's degree is useful in engineering firms, but it is certainly useful to a beginning engineer. You could eventually glean everything you learn in a master's program throughout your career, but the master's program will help it happen much more quickly and hopefully with more support.
My experience has been that a structural firm hiring a new engineer will be more likely to choose a candidate with a master's over a candidate without one. It probably won't get you any more money straight out of school, but it will make you more likely to get hired.

I did a non-thesis option and I don't think it ever even came up in my career if it was thesis or non-thesis. I was happy with that option then, but if I chose today I would definitely choose the thesis option. Of course, I also have a much better idea of what I really enjoy working on and what I would want to do a deep dive into now than I did while in school.

 

[rb1957]

yes, I suspect employers prefer Masters to Bachelors, although there should be a salary bump for Masters.

How much extra depth do you get in a year's (or two) of schooling ... some but nothing "earth shattering". The most I think you'd get is more exposure to one discipline, to see if you like it or not.

What's the difference between working for a year (or not) or studying for a year (or two). Probably not much. On-the-job learning is where you'll get the most benefit (IMHO).

But the problem (AISI) "these days" is that a Bachelors is just not enough time to cover the material. I find Bachelors is just skimming the surface, and a Masters would give you some of the depth we got "in the olde days". Few graduates are ready to work from the get-go (IMHO), they know some stuff but not enough foundational material. I'd rather see graduates from a Co-op program, so they've had a little work experience ... but more some time away from the pressure of school to digest some of what they've learnt, and to get some of this foundational material.

I used to hire engineering graduates. Over the course of several years the number who could answer my interview question (even with help) is depressingly small (< 5) ...
"derive the bending moment distribution for a simply supported beam with a single point load" (and yes I drew the problem so they could see it). Even more depressing, my sample includes Masters graduates too.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[JoelTXCive]

In Texas, there are lots of structural engineers with 4 year degrees.

I still feel that a masters degree is necessary though, just to get additional fundamentals in basic design.

I only had 1 concrete and 1 steel class in my ABET approved undergraduate curriculum.

It was not until graduate school that I had a 2nd and 3rd concrete + steel courses. I also did not take finite element analysis until graduate school.

Those additional courses have been hugely beneficial to me.

 

[WARose]

Are master's degrees in structural engineering useful in engineering firms?

I don't know about useful.....but they are getting (more and more) required. Seems like a lot of the ads for entry level type jobs are asking for it. Also, there has been a push over the years for a MS degree as a minimum education requirement for the PE/SE. Given how screwy a lot of grandfathering clauses turn out to be with a lot of engineering boards.....having it is probably best (for down the line).

Which is best for engineering firms, a master's degree with or without thesis?

I don't think I've been asked about a thesis but once. (And that was by some idiot HR guy.) Me personally, I did the non-thesis option because I went back to take classes....not to write a thesis. (Actually, originally, I just went back to take just a few classes....not go the whole way, but I wound up finishing it anyway....long story there.)

I do (somewhat) regret not writing a thesis because I was in a unique position (i.e. as a licensed engineer earning good money) that I could have financed testing out of my own pocket....and I had a few ideas.....but (again) I didn't go back to write a thesis.

 

[JedClampett]

I got a masters because I couldn't find a job out of college. Just kept going. It's turned out kind of handy. I got a dollar more an hour in 1976 ($7.50 vs. $6.50). Plus my current company wants masters for their process engineers (discipline engineers are a commodity), so they wrote it into their hiring guidelines. It might be why I got my current job.
We still prefer MS candidates, but these days, good curious people are hard to find, so the MS is a luxury.

 

[JoelTXCive]

For a master's ONLY student, a thesis is just a book report that nobody cares about or reads. If anything, maybe it provides the advising faculty member something they can re-form into a research dollar request.

I would much rather have 1 additional course than do a masters only thesis.

For a master's student with plans on getting a PhD, then the master's thesis can be a springboard into the PhD Dissertation.

 

[STrctPono]

In the company I work for, small size (less than 20 Engineers) consulting design firm that focuses on bridges and transportation infrastructure, we hire those with Masters degrees to work as design Engineers and those with Bachelors to work as field Engineers.

I'm a huge advocate for getting a Masters degree. I doubled my exposure to structural depth courses by getting a Masters over what I had already taken in my Bachelors. Not to mention that I was able to TA for courses like Mechanics of Materials, Dynamics, and Reinforced Concrete Design which, if anything, just supercharged my exposure to those subject matters. Nothing will ever replace actual on the job training but you need that strong theoretical background if you want to design larger, more interesting, and unique structures. With that being said, there are plenty of small firms that do standard cookie-cutter type design that would probably prefer someone with a Bachelors so that they don't have to pay them extra. Being able to effectively prepare plans, specifications, and estimates is an art and can be learned on the job. It takes years to get good at it (some never will) but this is not something you want to waste your time learning in school, especially if you're paying for it.

Honestly, I don't really think a thesis vs. non-thesis matters that much, but I do think that the general feeling is that the thesis option is the slightly harder route and is tailored more to the individual that enjoys research and independent work.

 

[mtu1972]

My experience echoes a lot of what’s already been stated. Got my BSCE in 1972 and had two job offers. First was $10,500 in San Francisco and second was less money with a metal building company in Arizona. My professor’s said you can’t live in SF for that wage. I was not interested in the then new metal building industry, so I stayed in the MS program at MTU.

Was told it was a five term (45 credit program) and promised my new wife we’d be able to move on then. The advanced courses provided far more insight into all the structural design and analysis subjects. Also got into Finite Elements and Matrix Analysis. The only class that I never used was Bridge Design.

During the fourth and fifth terms, the University replaced the main-frame computer and my master’s thesis program (IBM punch cards) quit working. As no one could help, I got frustrated and decided to take a job. Throughout my career those advanced courses proved to be an advantage over those that had not taken any.

Because it always bothered me, 27 years later I started a distant learning MS program. Six years later I completed the non-theses option.

gjc

 

[Logan82]

Thank you everyone for your input! It's appreciated!

 

[kissymoose]

Also, a masters took a whole year off of the experience required for a PE for me.

 

[PEinc]

More knowledge is always helpful.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[Logan82]

Also, is it possible to do a doctorate with a masters degree without thesis?

 

[271828]

Yes. That is common.

That being said, a big part of a PhD program is trying to become a good writer. Thus, if a new MS student anticipates continuing for a PhD, then a thesis is recommended. It would provide a nice head start.

 

[CrabbyT]

I don't have a master's degree. Speaking for myself, it's never hindered my ability to find work. I would go as far as to say it doesn't make sense financially, and it's not worth the money (in my opinion).

Cost of Master's = 30 credits * $1000 per credit = $30,000 over two years.
Cost of loans = a lot

Earnings 1st year = $60,000
Earnings 2nd year = $65,000

I could've spent 30K plus whatever loans are required to live, or earn 125K and not incur more debt.