Mediocre vs Top Notch university 8

[RunSomewhere]

I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?

 

[TheTick]

Hard to say.

I worked in Silicon Valley as a contract designer. My contractor colleagues and I were Midwest imports, graduates of Big 10 universities. Most of the engineers we worked with went to Stanford or MIT. There wasn't a discernable IQ gap, but it was clear that the MIT and Stanford guys really did get a better education.

 

[RunSomewhere]

Currently I am taking one course a semester. At the mediocre university, my employer will pick up the tab for almost all of it ($5,250/year limit...anything above and the IRS taxes it). The top notch school would put me back around $25k. Is the difference in education worth the extra cash?

 

[HgTX]

There are a couple of other threads regarding how closely someone will look at your GPA later in life; I can't remember if any of them factored in how "good" the school is.

If you're not concerned about differences in price, I personally believe there is a value in going to a "better" school. I like it better when I am challenged not just by my professors but by those around me, and this is more likely at the "better" school (okay, I'm tired of typing scare quotes, so just assume them from here on out).

After some life detours, I ended up finishing my B.S. at a mediocre school, and though I have a nice 4.0 to show for it that I might not (but dammit I might) have gotten at a better school, I didn't like being top in the class; I felt like maybe I could be getting more somewhere else. When I got to grad school (which was a top school), those of us from the lesser schools did indeed have more trouble than the people who had been in the top schools as undergrads. I think the challenge level is very different. Whether that matters to an employer is one question. Whether it matters to you is another.

But that 4.0 comes back to the initial question about the relative value of different performances at different schools. Once it looked like I *could* have a 4.0, it became very important to me to maintain it. Someone could look at a 3.9 at my school and say, oh, that converts to a 3.2 (or whatever) at MIT. But if I have a 4.0, max out the scale, they have no idea how well I could have done somewhere else.

Hg

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[ctopher]

Is your major Engineering? As long as it's ABET accreditation, either school will be equal...IMO.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

 

[HgTX]

Equal for registering to take the PE exam?
Equal on a resume?
Equal for how much you will learn?

Three different considerations.

Two schools both meeting the same MINIMIUM set of standards for an accreditation does not mean the programs are identical. That's all certification and accreditation mean, just meeting some minimum set of standards. How far a program goes beyond the minimum requirements is up to them and won't be reflected in accreditation status.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[MiketheEngineer]

After your first job - doesn't seem like anybody cares.

If you want a Masters or PHD - go to the best school you can find/afford.

 

[carnage1]

ABET accreditation is a good indicator that you will receive at least a solid education, however one thing to remember is that a bigger name school with bigger class sizes does not always mean you learn more.

 

[metengr]

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

Disagree.
The success of an Engineer is dependent on what passion you have within you for the profession, and how you interact with others, etc. Of course having been an Engineer for a number of years, I reflect back on the university I attended for BS and MS degrees, and I see no benefit to be gained by going to a top tier school for the sake of having graduated from that school especially with the cost of education. The foundation I received at the university was more than adequate to prepare me for the challenges of my various jobs. What you put into the school you will get out of it. There is nothing that beats OTJ expierence, if you are willing to learn.

After my first job, nobody cared about my GPA. All employers were interested in was past experience, expierence and expierence.

 

[IRstuff]

At the core of the question is really, "nature vs. nurture?" Does the school make the man?

Partly, yes, and partly no. Some schools provide a better education and training, but, the old adage of, "lead a horse to water...," still applies. And, there are plenty of examples of people who have succeeded despite enormous odds and disadvantages, so a large part of anyone's success is ultimately, their drive and their passion.

I think that if you are of high caliber, you can extract as much as you need or want from your current school.

As to some of the other issues raised, just bear in mind that the graduates of those "top-notch" schools needed to be "top-notch" applicants to have gotten accepted at those vaunted institutions. Therefore, their performance, post-graduation, might have little to do with their actual education, and more to do with their actual abilities, again, nature vs. nurture.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[goldnwhite]

I agree with metengr that your success will be dependent on what you put into it. As far as the top tier schools, I went to a top school in a large city in the south (check the screen name) for my BS and then a less prestigous school for my MS. As a TA for the second school, I could tell the quality of cirriculum was different, but there were still good engineers at both schools. I don't think you can discount someone because of the school they went to, but I think if you went to a top school there are certain things you will learn (beyond the book stuff) no matter what that you won't get at other schools (time management, etc.).

 

[Jmadamek]

IRstuff pretty much summed it up in my opinion. Star.

 

[dougantholz]

Here is the way I see it MUEagle:
The reasons to go to a top notch university:
1. The quality of the instructors is more likely to be good.
2. The class sizes are usually smaller, with more opportunities to learn beyond the curriculum.
3. The students you will be competing with will be among the best in the country. You usually can't just show up and get a B.
4. The students in your classes are more likely to be the future leaders and top notch engineers in their community.
5. The quality of the connections you can make with Alumni and those affiliated with the college are a lot better.
6. More likely the bosses and managers you will be interviewing in the future attended the top notch university you just graduated from.
7. How do you know how good you are until you test yourself.

Reasons to go to a mediocre college:
1. Cheaper
2. Can be closer to "home"
3. Education & resources "could be" just as good as that of the top notch college.
4. The course work is tougher and you might not achieve a passing rating at the top notch school. Not as likely a "drop out".
5. Did I say cheaper?

 

[SomptingGuy]

I agree with Hg. Always getting top marks through lack of competition does not stretch one. Competition with ones peers is a good thing. The sewer principle does apply (what you get out depends on what you put in), so the arguments about whether one school teaches better than another is a valid one. But being surrounded by real competition is a good thing for students who want to succeed.

(My comments relate to my experiences of secondary rather than university education, but I think the same principles apply.)

- Steve

 

[civilperson]

At the end of the day, it is only you and the textbook. Better universities have smaller classes and more stimulating lectures but the material IS THE SAME. Passing the PE exam shows that good students from all schools have the same passing rate and the poor students fail an equivalent number of times.

 

[ivymike]

you should probably try to go to the hardest school at which you can still finish in the top 15%. Good luck finding it.

 

[Comcokid]

dougantholz reasons #3 and #4 touch upon another good reason. Some of your fellow students are likely to be the future entrepreneurs and leaders. You may end up being a mediocre student at a top university, but the contacts you make may create opportunities you won't have elsewhere.

My son chose computer science at a top school, but made poor grades. However, a couple of his fellow students were selected for research positions, and when asked who they would pick as a third new-hire, they suggested him. He's now got the job situation I've always wished for.

 

[IRstuff]

go to the hardest school at which you can still finish in the top 15%

oops, I graduated 50-percentile.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[dougantholz]

One thing I forgot to add to the list above. 3-5 for top notch schools is only really true if you go there full time. Part time students don't tend to make the same connections.

 

[Noway2]

As a person who did their engineering undergrad at Akron and then did their graduate work at CWRU, I believe I am in a unique position to advise you. If you can at all afford to attend Case, do it. There is absolutely no comparison between the two schools.

It is difficult to explain the differences in the schools, but more the biggest difference comes down to one of attitude. At Akron, I felt that there was a lot of political bs going on and that the objective wasn't to learn or to teach. At case, I didn't get this impression. At Akron you needed to go suck up to the teacher after hours to get taught the necessary material to do well on the tests. At CWRU, the material was taught in class and if the class wasn't 'getting it' then the teacher stayed with the topic till they did.

There are also technical differences between the curriculum of the programs too, where at CWRU you will find that the work load, while more intense, is also a lot more up to date and applicable to the real world. For example, in my digital logic class at Akron they skipped the tagged-tabulation method of minimizing logic circuits. Of course this was a real eye opener when I got to Case. Here is another example: At Akron the undergrad microprocessor architecture class had us write some 8088 assembly to IO read a port of switches and write to a port of LEDs on a bread board. At case, the undergrad microprocessor class (which I took as an added elective) had us analyzing the internal structure of the CPUs, computing resource utiliziation and instruction pipeline queueing.

Of course, getting into CWRU is a bit more challenging and they are a lot more restrictive of who they will let into the program. If I last recall over 50% of the applicants are told thanks, but no thanks. Like I said, if you can afford it and get accepted, go for it and don't look back.

As a final note. When I got my second job out of school. The VP of HR flat out told me that if I had only attended Akron and not CWRU that I would not have been hired because their experience with Akron graduates is that they aren't up to par.