Mediocre vs Top Notch university 8

[RunSomewhere]

I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?

 

[ctopher]

MuEagle05,

You quoted: "Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

Curious who's quote is this? Citation?

Thanks.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

 

[RunSomewhere]

Apologies,

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university." -dougantholz

 

[ctopher]

Thanks MuEagle05.
That would be in thread731-222678.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

 

[jimgineer]

I think that your school is vastly important, just as your upbringing is vastly important in predicting your ability to produce (in addition to natural ability). Look at the best schools, and that's why the blue chips and top organizations around recruit there - There success is a product of the people they bring on board.

 

[DRC1]

Note that this post has ben beaten to, death< I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
1) As far as undergraduate engineering, goes what you achieve is probably more dependent on how motivated you are. You can get a good grounding in fundementals at a mediocre school and have known many good engineers who came 2nd tier ( sounds nicer than mediocre) schools. Also new some engineers from 1st tier who did not know much at all. However, you will probably be pushed harder, and have the oppertunity to see more in terms on research at a first tier school. You should look at work load if you are thinking about CWRU and working.
All things being equal, I would encourage you to go to the best school you can afford. Although your GPA is not issue after your first job, Your school is. People need standards to make complicated judgements, and for your abilities as an engineer, your school will be (for right or wrong) the standard by which you are evaluated not only for hiring but as to the quality of your opinion, or the competency of your presentation to clients. People will decide your engineering ability based on level of education and quality of institution. This will be especially true of people you interact with who are not engineers.
I am sure many of you will comment that this is not fair. I am not saying it is. I am just saying that has been my experience in the world.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that while most of your reputation will be based on your body of work, certain schools will still carry certain connotations well into the tail end of your career.

Specifically, graduates of Caltech or MIT, because they were, and are, extremely selective, even 30 yrs after graduation, there's still an expectation of higher performance from you. The plus side is that you get some level of authority not accorded to graduates of other schools.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[TurbineGen]

I don't think the added expense of Case Western is worth the huge price difference. Maybe if it was MIT.... maybe. I lived in Cleveland and worked out of Akron for 3 years. I worked with students from Case, OSA, University of Akron, and UCLA (UCLA - University on the Corner of Lincoln Ave. - aka. Youngstown ). Their educations were very similar and the company we worked for didn't seem to make any distinction between them. Now if it were MIT, Harvard, or some very top teir school, maybe it would be worth the price.

What school you went isn't as hard of a hurdle to jump as what GPA you earned. I'd rather get a 3.1 GPA at Akron, than a 2.9 at MIT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

 

[COWBOYME]

Okay, in my opinion, the problem statement lacks sufficient data. While everyone has done a marvelous job of interpreting the question and proffering valid advice from that viewpoint, I would like further clarification. Are you asking which rout is better for landing a good job, or for actually becoming a good engineer? These are vastly different propositions.
I can see both sides of the good job issue. Everyone here has thoughtfully laid out their opinions both philosophically and empirically. Some have approached the second question in evaluating the success of the student academically based on the level of competition and the quality of the curriculum. However IMO, these considerations are most relevant to your career as a scholar and only obliquely related to actual excellence in the profession (assuming you succeed in either setting). Granted, how fast you hit the ground running is of great importance to many of our fellow members who have climbed the heights and now sit in positions of responsibility for these types of concerns. Therefore, their appreciation of your school’s status will directly affect your initial acceptance into the field. In the long run though, your professional excellence will be a direct function of your drive and ability. When you, through your hard work, professional ethics, continual learning and good attitude, become a subject matter expert; you will be in high demand regardless of your beginnings. I promise that the real learning starts after you graduate and start facing real-world problems. When you get there, listen to the old guys and learn what they can teach you. Take lots of notes. Learn the codes and company mechanisms. And never be afraid to try innovative approaches to problems. Whichever path you follow, apply yourself to the max. Don’t be satisfied with anything but excellence. Never be too small to offer an opinion or too big to ask for help. Learn from others, both from their successes and from their failures. If you want to become a good engineer, don’t get stymied by problems like this. Choose a solution that solves the problem and apply it. And remember, often times the best solution to a problem is the simplest one.

Go do it!

Tom

 

[cry22]

Came to the US in 1983, when I sent my resume out, people could not even put the country I came from on the map, can you imagine what they thought of my degree or my school?
It was as tough as could be to land a job even though I had high grades, experience and all.

Once I landed the first job, no one ever cared of my schooling, employers cared about the projects I did, how well I did them, how fast I did them, how much unpaid overtime I was willing to put in, and how little I asked.
It was simply supply and demand.

Can you all name one Indian university or one Philipino University? No. Yet, we import a whole bunch of them every year.

 

[mauricestoker]

I was accepted to CalTech (with partial scholarship), MIT, U of Chicago, and really wanted to go to RPI for their RAMP program, but couldn't afford it and no co-signer (no loan officer in the trailer park). I ended up going to a prestigious school on scholarship/stipend for a dual philosophy/mathematics degee. The "prestige" was lost on me, being a gin-soaked boy with carnival desires and goat-like tendencies, and ended up transferring to a State school for engineering. Being charitable, it was a "third tier" school. The cream rises to the top, but so do floaters, and only one of the species gets flushed. Absolutely no regrets, especially for the goat-like tendencies. Could not perceive the difference in quality of students and professors then, and 25 years later, the "prestige" means less than zero. If you cannot produce, or cannot be taught to produce quickly, no use. If you are looking for "prestige" to provide privileges, then I hope you have a relative's firm to work for, as it means nothing compared to a personal track record of success or admirable failures.
Odds are good that over a career what you end up doing has nothing to do with theory and lab from college, at least unitl you get to a comfortable position. For the short term, "sucking up" may be of benefit-the Neil & Bob School of Management would be recommended over Wharton, if you have a taste for that.

 

[IRstuff]

"carnival desires" ??? You wanted to be in the circus?

No matter. Knew someone who went to Caltech to major in physics. After 2 quarters, he declared EngLit, and went into the Peace Corps after graduation.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Zapster]

Pick the school that offers the best value for an education. ABET accreditation with low in state tuition was enough for me. I just wanted to learn. I doubt that my school even made the top 100 engineering schools in the USA. It didn’t matter; I was offered a job by a Fortune Global 500 company while I was in my senior year. The job started four weeks after graduation. I was working with a wide range of starting engineers, three of them from the top 5 engineering universities in the USA. The pay was substantially above the national average for starting engineers. When you factor the cost of the educations, I was earning more than those guys from the top 5 engineering schools with the same salary.

I have moved on from that first job and I am confident that my income is greater than the most MIT guys; however the money is not the important thing. The important thing is that I am having a lot more fun than most folks. So this begs the question, does going to one of the 5 top USA engineering universities/colleges give you a better chance at being happy?

 

[youngstructural]

This is a very interesting thread, and I thought I'd throw in two thoughts:

1. I went to Carleton University. It had long had a reputation as "last chance U" as it operated on an interesting principle that "Every student has the right to fail". In the last couple of decades, however, we've become the top jounalism school, top architecture school, and (stream dependant) the top or near top engineering school. We also have highly respected International Policy and Public Affairs, as well as Political Science departments. BUT still the reputation can dog the graduates...

When I got my first job, at one of the longest established and best respected Structural firms in Canada, I was told flat out that they would never had hired a Carleton B.Eng. grad had I not come with personal recomendations from the President of Professional Engineers Ontario and carrying several Engineering competition wins under my arm.

After having worked at the job for six months I was personally thanked by the President for my work, and he (a graduate from a much more prestigious school, admitted that I was a better prepared and more practical graduate than any of the current graduates from his Alma Mater.

2. I moved to a foreign country after two years of Professional Practice in Canada; Just long enough to claim minimum two years Canadian experience appropriate for licensing. My degree, and any degree for that matter, has only one bias towards it: "Canadian". If you're willing and able to get overseas, your degree does not mean anything, only your abilities and the much mentioned experience, experience, experience, counts. Leaving your own country is the Ultimate academic background equaliser.


All of that aside, I do wonder where all of the "connections" of a more well known University may have taken me. I'll just have to be satisfied with knowing that I've received a top-notch education, and can certainly prove myself through my abilities and experiences.

Cheers,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

 

[Truemanator]

youngstructural,

You won a couple of engineering competitions, which ones? I've never personally been to CEC, but I ran part of WEC (the Western Canada regional).

I've never heard or gotten the impression that any engineering schools in Canada are particularly better or worse than others. Some have really strange systems and maybe lacking in the newest lab equipment, but overall in my regional and national experience... we all do nearly the same courses. Some schools however, like Waterloo, have a good reputation. I'm not sure why, but all I can figure out is that they just have a giant engineering program with a good selection of disciplines. However, they do have a mandatory co-op program which creates a massive advantage post graduation, in my opinion (my school, UVic, is modeled on theirs and almost identical).

I'm not sure whether you are saying it is a negative or positive bias that you have a Canadian engineering degree. My experiences have told me that our engineering accreditation system (with all of its Canadian-known faults) is very highly respected world wide. I'm curious whether your personal experience says otherwise.

 

[swivel63]

go "mediocre" to "top notch."

generally speaking.

 

[youngstructural]

Truemenator:

First off, I won two different competitions, one locally with PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario), another within an inter-University competition between Ottawa U, Carleton, Queens and U of T. To get to both competitions I had to compete at Carleton itself, placing first in the pre-PEO speaking competition and second in the inter-U primary.

I've also been a member of several teams that placed well (Great Norther Concrete Toboggan and Timber Bridge).

As for the bias towards Canadian Engineering Degrees, it is completely positive, when it exists. Most of the time people don't know anything about it, but trust you automatically because you're Canadian. The image we have, for the most part, is of clean-living, polite, nice people. I've always thought that was a bit of a joke, but on average, from what I have experienced overseas, I have come to see that we actually deserve said reputation.

As for Universities in Canada, you're right about the consistency. If a University doesn't toe the line, CEAB comes down on them like a ton of bricks. I've heard of multiple loss of accreditations, and severe warnings, even from "reputed" universities.

Waterloo made their name by, as far as I have been told, INVENTING the Engineering Co-Op program in the early 1960s.

Other than all of that, I believe very strongly that it is the quality and motivation of person that makes the engineer, along with a good dose of oppotunity and POST graduation mentoring. If you went to a Canadian school, you have the foundation needed to build a career. I cannot comment on other countries except New Zealand, where I now assist with the teaching of 2nd year Structural Design as an Industry Mentor. I believe Canterbury produces very high quality engineers, much more versed in Seismic design than any Canadian graduate, slightly less in depth on the regular stuff and some theory (read: fine details of theory and good detailing practice) than a Canadian graduate. This is understandable as they concentrate so heavily on EQ. It does annoy me though when I talk about welding details and get blank stairs. They just don't learn much about it.

Sorry for yet another long post!

*smiles*

Regards,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

 

[RunSomewhere]

I have to burst your Waterloo co-op bubble. Waterloo did not invent the engineering co-op.

The University of Cincinnati in Ohio did in 1906.

http://www.eng.uc.edu/prospectivestudents/coop/

Maybe they were the first to bring it to Canada?

 

[swivel63]

there are "dumb" engineers at "great" universities and "great" engineers at "dumb" universities.

 

[youngstructural]

Ah ha, well, I stand corrected. Always happy to learn something new...

Great to see good things coming out of the states (ie: co-op). Being Canadian I'm supposed to have a "certain bias", but I really like the US engineering style; Lots of manuals, examples, explanations and procedures. Makes the continual learning needed in our Profession that much easier. I'm thoroughly convinced that if the US had actually gone metric codes like ACI 318 and AISC Steel Design would have been adopted by other countries outright. And yes, I am aware the there are Metric editions, however nearly all the rest of the supporting material is imperial only.

Good codes, crappy units.

On the matter of quality of University, I think I'm done. I'll probably keep reading, but suspect this thread has now truly been completely reviewed.

Cheers,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

 

[excognito]

"when I talk about welding details and get blank stairs."

Presumably the stairs are blank because they're made of wood and don't take kindly oxy-acetylene torches?