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Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02 151
- Thread starter dik
- Start date
NOLAscience said:
Based on the basement storm water drain plan, this should not be overlooked. Someone posted a Miami Beach tide chart above, but that is not the appropriate reporting station relative to the site. The times and heights for Surfside Beach differ.
I’d take a seriously hard look at the foundation plan change in pile types revision.
spinspecdrt
Materials
I'm confused by the TikTok video as well. It's hard to tell if it's column M8 or M9.1. Either way, the debris would be from the recreation room and restrooms above so the water is likely coming from there or fire sprinklers on basement lid.
Santos81 said:
I see the shearwall (grids 3 to 4), then the half height ramp wall with a column at the end (M/8) then the yellow column (M/10). Looking at the soffit I see the entrance, then 2 step downs before the end of the shear wall, then something that looks like a beam at grid 8 (there is no documented beam at grid 8 - maybe a sign?).
I only point it out because, on first glance, I thought it was showing damage under the main building (M8 as you say). With the damage being from the south of the building, the pool plaza area, it corroborates other testimonies. Now the questions become:
- Did failure begin at the planters or west of the pool and why? Testimony from 111 - there was popping noise, load bang, then witnessed pool plaza collapsed from lobby. Maybe that collapse progressed from the planter area collapse?
- How did progressive collapse of the plaza eventually fail the building columns?
- What is Beam A? Called out on the drawings but not detailed on the beam schedule. To be provided at runtime?
Penthouse Update. The following has been posted by the Town of Surfside recently.
From:
Dec 2, 1980 letter:
Dec 11, 1980 letter:
From:
Dec 2, 1980 letter:
Dec 11, 1980 letter:
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- #187
Forensic74
Structural
I see a lot of ideas swirling around here, but suggest some of you read up on plaza drainage systems. I see so many plaza drainage system failures due to poor architectural design and/or implementation. This leads to a lot of concrete damage that works it way from the concealed surfaces outward to the visible surfaces.
In my view, you've got a plaza drainage system on an old-school reinforced flat slab system with large planters right next to the point the collapse initiated. This all points to a corrosion induced punching shear failure that took out several perimeter columns and initiated a progressive collapse.
I think PE's should instead be watching what way the lawyers/officials go with our "duty to warn". I was disappointed by Batista's response on national television last night when it was questioned why PE's aren't required to notify the building dept when deteriorating concrete is observed. If PE's will be required to notify the building official for any type of concrete deterioration, it will set up an interesting situation where PE's then get sued for unreasonably causing large buildings to shut down.
In my view, you've got a plaza drainage system on an old-school reinforced flat slab system with large planters right next to the point the collapse initiated. This all points to a corrosion induced punching shear failure that took out several perimeter columns and initiated a progressive collapse.
I think PE's should instead be watching what way the lawyers/officials go with our "duty to warn". I was disappointed by Batista's response on national television last night when it was questioned why PE's aren't required to notify the building dept when deteriorating concrete is observed. If PE's will be required to notify the building official for any type of concrete deterioration, it will set up an interesting situation where PE's then get sued for unreasonably causing large buildings to shut down.
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- #188
spinspecdrt said:
If the water was coming from a broken fire sprinkler line the fire alarms would've sounded which according to all the information we've seen didn't happen. Or at least didn't happen prior to the major collapse. It probably would've helped if it had sounded really on in the series of events since I probably would have helped evacuate a few additional people.
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- #189
I am not a structural engineer. I can only say that in South Florida there is a lot of limestone embedded in the soil. Regular flow of water in and out of the area around limestone will cause said limestone to dissolve. There have been also reports that the ground around the build had been sinking slightly each year. The water from the pool deck would also contribute to these processes. What I am think is a sudden subsistence of the ground under the building starting in the pool area. This would cause the building structure to fall a short distance with a sudden stop or impact. This impact cause a chain reaction cause the floors to collapse from the bottom up.
While not technically not a sinkhole, it is something very similar.
While not technically not a sinkhole, it is something very similar.
OSUCivlEng
Civil/Environmental
One of those remarkable stories of survival is of Champlain Towers South resident Iliana Monteagudo of Unit 611, who woke up that horrific night to the sound of cracking.
“Something inside of me said, ‘Run, because this building will collapse,’” she explained.
Monteagudo says she was sleeping in her sixth floor unit at around 1:30 a.m., early Thursday morning, when she suddenly woke up and found a crack growing along her living room wall.
“Something inside of me said, ‘Run, because this building will collapse,’” she explained.
Monteagudo says she was sleeping in her sixth floor unit at around 1:30 a.m., early Thursday morning, when she suddenly woke up and found a crack growing along her living room wall.
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- #191
- Thread starter
- #192
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Four more bodies have been removed from the rubble. It's obvious that the rescue effort has now become recovery.
Four More Bodies Found In Collapsed Florida Condo Rubble; At Least 16 Dead
Severe weather in coming days could further test the search and rescue effort.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Four More Bodies Found In Collapsed Florida Condo Rubble; At Least 16 Dead
Severe weather in coming days could further test the search and rescue effort.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
"Engineer brought in by Surfside says Champain Towers’ North, East condos are safe"
A peek into the current state of the North tower, which is in relatively good shape to my untrained eyes. It seems the eventual report will be just as much a tale of two condo associations as it is a report on the structural issues in the South building.
A peek into the current state of the North tower, which is in relatively good shape to my untrained eyes. It seems the eventual report will be just as much a tale of two condo associations as it is a report on the structural issues in the South building.
- Thread starter
- #196
warrenslo said:
I did post a snip of the Morabito prelim repair drawings (29 Jun 21 15:08), that indicated multiple layers of tile/pavers were found to exist on the pool/plaza deck area. This suggested to me that perhaps the pool/plaza deck had been tiled over at some point, possibly adding an additional 10 to 20 psf load to the slab. It's hard to say for sure because the original drawings are a mess, but it looks like the original spec was for a single layer of "keystone" pavers.
Is the only technology for a building's concrete and rebar inspections - the human eye?
You can patch and paint over cracks, cosmetically all looks wonderful, an inspector could be fooled.
Especially for a 40 year interval, why isn't there more than a look-see, use something penetrating like x-ray?
edit: I see the press is already asking this, as well as the "40 year" number should be based on environment, not the Miami DEA office building collapse in 1974. Link
You can patch and paint over cracks, cosmetically all looks wonderful, an inspector could be fooled.
Especially for a 40 year interval, why isn't there more than a look-see, use something penetrating like x-ray?
edit: I see the press is already asking this, as well as the "40 year" number should be based on environment, not the Miami DEA office building collapse in 1974. Link
Forensic74
Structural
Lol, run GPR on this building? I've gotten quotes over 40 grand just for the GPR and they couldn't decipher anything useful. Its not all that its cracked up to be.
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- #200
Here is a high-res (9 MB) image of the pool deck failure which shows detail of the tops of the columns and the layers of the deck.
[edit]the image was being noticeably compressed so I made it a PDF.[/edit]
The clearer PDF is available here:
[edit]the image was being noticeably compressed so I made it a PDF.[/edit]
The clearer PDF is available here:
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