Modifying sealed drawings 13

[PEN1460]

I had a heated discussion with my boss's son today (both non-engineer) and I told him I have evidence that they have modified stamped drawings when we get our final design back. He said that it was perfectly ok "if you make the member bigger". That's not entirely true because when I design portal frames, a W8X10 has a larger ry value than W10X12 or W12X14. Sometimes that pushes the kl/r ratio above 200. That's perfectly fine, IFF you design for it. What is your view on modifying stamped drawings?

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I'd e-mail first....then call (as a follow up, if needed). And save a hard copy of all related correspondence. You want some sort of record of what these guys are doing. A complaint made before the fact looks much better than something goes wrong.....and then you told the board what these guys are doing.

I totally agree with WARose here. Establish a written record of the issue. Let them know that you view that action as being both illegal and unethical. Ask them to agree in writing that they will never do that again.

Clearly, the son doesn't understand why this is so wrong. So, I'm slightly softer on this issue than some folks here. If you've got good reasons to stay, then stay. But, get this issue documented in writing. You don't have to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Just let them know that you want to have this documented to protect yourself and your career. Also, that you want to establish a better (more legal!) procedure so that things like this don't happen in the future.

 

[dik]

I think the eMail comes after the 'chit chat'... they have to know how serious their actions are before starting the paperwork... once this is acknowledged then it my 'go away' and not be replicated. it's the way I do things... no one has to follow.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[drbrainsol]

This seems dodgy as hell but I would also suggest a more conciliatory stance at first. Stop asking yourself how many times they may have done this without you finding out. You only have this single incident to base it on and should not make assumptions (unless there is something you are not telling us and the people you work with are sly bas***ds).

First of all, your responsibility is to ensure that what is built is safe. If the structure has been built using the modified drawings, do some checks first to ensure it is all good.

Secondly, have a meeting with the boss and his son and explain your concerns - don't be overtly dramatic but explain to them that there is more than meets the eye when designing structures and any change could have unintended consequences. Also tell them that, legally, they are liable for the "revised" design and could get in trouble. Maybe give them one of the examples mentioned in this thread. You could also tell them what your further checks found / if there are any modifications required. After the meeting, email them a non-judgemental list of the points discussed at the meeting - this is your proof that they have been warned.

I don't know where most of you practise engineering but in the UK (where I am based), contractors change designs all the time. Usually, they do consult the civil / structural engineer responsible beforehand but quite often the change is made on site and the engineer only asked to confirm acceptance after the fact. As with anything in life, compromise is important.

 

[PEN1460]

Ok here is the whole story. We don't have an in-house engineer so I draw everything up send it off the the engineer who reviews everything and makes suggestions on things that need to be changed. If everything is good, he sends back sealed drawings. I then send the file to the detailer who starts making work orders for the shop guys. Well all of a sudden one day my printer goes off and it has production labels on it. I look at the job number and realize this job should have been completed a long time ago. I ask the detailer whats going on, and he said the customer made changes to the job and he had to produce more frame lines. I then looked at the final floor plan and realized that another one of the bay spacings got extended. I asked him again about all this and his response was "This building is small enough that it shouldn't matter" (I'm pissed off at this point). I told him that he, nor I, am qualified to make that decision. I don't care if you add a 3'x3' window to this building, if ANYTHING changes, we send it back to the engineer and he ok's the change. I actually did write something up and had him sign it and I sent that off to the Texas board showing the original stamped drawings and the change that never got approved. They ended up calling me and I explained the whole situation. They told me that since it happened in New Mexico, they could not do anything, but if anything ever happened again to let them know. I've even had the sales guys here tell me that they've heard to boss tell their customers they can take out their x-bracing once the building is standing because the building is stiff enough with the panels.

My boss confronted me about it because I emailed him to let him know what was going on. Long story short, he was not happy. I've emailed him and his sons a few times to set up a meeting about things I've noticed we're going wrong and nothing ever came of it. I'm sure they like to play dumb so if the board ever does question them, they can just blame it on me or the detailer for doing it.

In case anyone was wondering, I deal with PEMB. The highest seismic zone I've dealt with so far is B so detailing for seismic loads is not a concern. Yes this building was small so the changes still worked out fine. I just had to get on to him and let him know that he was not qualified to make that decision.

 

[PEN1460]

Also, I've emailed the engineer who stamps our stuff and he is pretty much telling me the same thing as you guys. I'm just very new to all this and I feel like I have to deal with a lot of stuff at once. I'm just trying to think of what happens if I do leave. I've applied to so many other places and I'm not hearing anything back. I still have a mortgage and all the other bills to pay for. Trust me, if I have an opportunity to leave, I'm gone. I'll accept half my pay elsewhere.

 

[Ron247]

Unanimous opinions are rare but applicable here. That is how bad what they are doing is. They have put you in several bad positions.
[ul]
[li]Ethical obligation to report their activity to all the appropriate authorities. You have that ethical obligation. Not fair that you leave for another job and they continue the practice.[/li]
[li]Now that you know, how many of your designs are you expected to backtrack through to see what they changed? If you find one change that makes a member exceed allowable, what do you do in reporting that?[/li]
[li]Since you know they did it to you, makes sense they did it to others. How involved to you get in that menagerie?[/li]
[li]Others problems too numerous to think about.[/li]
[/ul]

As far as the problems with changing member sizes, it is real serious for statically indeterminant projects. In addition to the numerous examples already cited, there are so many configurations that member size dictates change in stress. Design a portal frame with both columns and the rafter stressed 99.9% and decide to change the columns to something 125% heavier because you don't like columns being stressed too high and now you may have an overstressed rafter.

 

[phamENG]

PEN - you mentioned a couple times now that it "happened in New Mexico." By that do you mean that the changes were physically made in New Mexico, or that it was a New Mexico project (engineer's seal was for NM)? If the latter, a report should go to the NM Board as they would likely have jurisdiction. I don't have a license in NM, so if I were to change a drawing with a NM seal on it for a project to be built in New Mexico, I would be violating the laws of New Mexico even though I'm sitting at my desk in Virginia.

 

[WARose]

Ok here is the whole story. We don't have an in-house engineer so I draw everything up send it off the the engineer who reviews everything and makes suggestions on things that need to be changed. If everything is good, he sends back sealed drawings.

That bit of info would have altered my advise to a degree. (From your OP I assumed you were the EOR. I guess the "we get our final design back" didn't register with me as to who was what.) In that case, you could have just notified the EOR and left it in his court. (Perhaps with a verbal warning to the "boss" as well.)

By the way, what is your background? EIT? Drafter?

 

[Rabbit12]

I agree with WARose, the advice to you is a lot different if you aren't the EOR or even a registered engineer.

Kudos to you for not just turning the blind eye on this though. It's easy to do that.