Do you think it is acceptable to send engineers (salary, exempt) to do field service work? There is absolutely no engineering/business work to be done at this site. We are short on field service staff at the moment, and so they immediately turned to the engineering staff to complete this installation. This is long hours away from home doing work that was not in the job description, that is dirty, dangerous, and office engineers are not qualified to complete. There will be no monetary reimbursement (besides applicable mileage/meals). Is this appropriate? Do you find yourselves in this situation? Is it normal? Thanks!
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Office Engineers Doing Field Work 18
- Thread starter jut07
- Start date
I've been threatened with it a bunch of times here, never done it though - they always came up with another plan, sometimes last minute after I'd already cancelled my plans for the weekend etc. Currently my boss & his boss discourage this kind of thing but who knows when that'll change.
Other people here get sent abroad several times a year. Similare issue on the no compensation, expected to travel in 'non work' time, pay yourself and get reimbursed etc.
I don't think it's appropriate or reasonable. When it's really important I don't have a problem with having to do the trip but the lack of compensation etc. is not my cup of tea. However, in an 'At Will' situation, it may not be easy to say no, although you can always try to find a new employer.
At my last place we did a lot of in the field testing etc but it wasn't exactly field service. It wasn't formally compensated but they'd usually find someway of making it up to you, especially if you did it a lot.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Other people here get sent abroad several times a year. Similare issue on the no compensation, expected to travel in 'non work' time, pay yourself and get reimbursed etc.
I don't think it's appropriate or reasonable. When it's really important I don't have a problem with having to do the trip but the lack of compensation etc. is not my cup of tea. However, in an 'At Will' situation, it may not be easy to say no, although you can always try to find a new employer.
At my last place we did a lot of in the field testing etc but it wasn't exactly field service. It wasn't formally compensated but they'd usually find someway of making it up to you, especially if you did it a lot.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
- Thread starter
- #3
Fortunately, this is not over the weekend. But I agree. I don't mind working late on occasion or travelling to diagnose/fix a problem, but to turn to your salaried staff becasue it's cheaper than paying overtime is, in my mind, ridiculous. There will definitely be no formal reimbursement, but I do hope that this is made up somehow (however unlikely). They just found out the new guy can turn a wrench I guess. My mistake for proving that - I shoulda slacked.
I guess they think we just go home, watch tv and drink beer by ourselves every night. I get frustrated because I like to get my projects done at home, enjoy time with friends and family, and sleep in my bed with my wife. Even when we're done for the day, they're keeping me from doing what I want to do just cause it's too far away. But maybe that's just me or maybe I'm too whiney. Thanks for listening to my rant and for your responses.
I guess they think we just go home, watch tv and drink beer by ourselves every night. I get frustrated because I like to get my projects done at home, enjoy time with friends and family, and sleep in my bed with my wife. Even when we're done for the day, they're keeping me from doing what I want to do just cause it's too far away. But maybe that's just me or maybe I'm too whiney. Thanks for listening to my rant and for your responses.
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MiketheEngineer
Structural
God forbid - You might learn something. Even if it is you don't want to do this the rest of your life.
Once in awhile is a good thing...
Once in awhile is a good thing...
Mint - without any compensation for extra hours and/or when it wasn't a condition of employment etc?
If you just mean getting a bit of practical time in is good I agree but having been messed about on this kind of thing by management, for what appear to the the OPs situation I'd disagree.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
If you just mean getting a bit of practical time in is good I agree but having been messed about on this kind of thing by management, for what appear to the the OPs situation I'd disagree.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
- Thread starter
- #7
This isn't the first time it's happened. This is the 4th trip in a year. None of which required any engineering experience. I was told on the first one that it was good to see an actual customer site in production. Fine. I'll bite, and it was worth it. Then the following trips came and they were out of field service staff and lab technicians, and there I was. I recognize the value of "field trips" but I don't think that using engineers as brute labor (which is what they told me they needed) is acceptable. Far from mandatory.
And Mike, I've busted my arse already in life, more than you will ever know. It's why I finished college. Yes, there is plenty for me to learn. But there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product.
And Mike, I've busted my arse already in life, more than you will ever know. It's why I finished college. Yes, there is plenty for me to learn. But there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product.
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- #8
"Not a condition of employment" - really? If there isn't a clause that states "any you'll never ever need to go do field work", then this probably falls under the clause that is almost certainly there that says "...or whatever else we need or want you to do."
Travel on your own time - pretty typical for "professional" positions, but not for field service staff - who are typically paid travel time door-to-door.
If they are only going to pay you for 8 hours, go work for 8 hours.
"there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product." - then you can learn about the product.
Yeah, you may be getting a bad deal, but your whining "I don't want to get my hands dirty" attitude is worse.
Travel on your own time - pretty typical for "professional" positions, but not for field service staff - who are typically paid travel time door-to-door.
If they are only going to pay you for 8 hours, go work for 8 hours.
"there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product." - then you can learn about the product.
Yeah, you may be getting a bad deal, but your whining "I don't want to get my hands dirty" attitude is worse.
Right now we have our chemist out in the field acting as an inspector. But the difference is that the work is relevant to his field; he got to his current inspection certification level on company dollars; and it's a case of everyone, including him, agreeing that this needs to be done on a temporary basis till someone else comes up with a more permanent solution to the inspector shortage. ("Someone else" let the 3rd-party contract lapse.) I don't know how hard his arm had to be twisted to get him to do it, but at least he knows that sooner or later this will not be happening any more. Also, although he's salaried, we get hour-for-hour compensatory time, so he will get to make up the time later.
Many jobs will give an estimated percentage of travel time; if the assumption was desk job, then lots of travel is beyond what can reasonably be expected. Lots of travel to do something outside one's normal job description is even less reasonable.
At some point "other duties as assigned" crosses the line into abuse; if turning a wrench isn't where the line is drawn, how about wielding a mop for the nightly bathroom cleaning?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
Many jobs will give an estimated percentage of travel time; if the assumption was desk job, then lots of travel is beyond what can reasonably be expected. Lots of travel to do something outside one's normal job description is even less reasonable.
At some point "other duties as assigned" crosses the line into abuse; if turning a wrench isn't where the line is drawn, how about wielding a mop for the nightly bathroom cleaning?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
For a couple of years I worked in New Mexico and my family lived in Colorado. My boss expected me to travel down on Sunday and home on Saturday. I said "no, I'll leave after starting time on Monday and will head home in time to be at the house prior to quiting time on Friday". After some back and forth "we" agreed that I was right. I didn't have a problem working till midnight in the hotel (the bars do eventually get old), but I never once traveled on my weekends (when people scheduled meetings on Monday or Friday I declined, if they really wanted me there they rescheduled).
My job description didn't include on-site project management, but doing it for a couple of years made me a better design engineer (I rarely spec anything these days that simply cannot be built). My point is that if they want you somewhere away from home badly enough, there are generally areas for negotiation.
David
My job description didn't include on-site project management, but doing it for a couple of years made me a better design engineer (I rarely spec anything these days that simply cannot be built). My point is that if they want you somewhere away from home badly enough, there are generally areas for negotiation.
David
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jut07,
One of my bosses once threatened to send me up in a customer's helicopter, after trying to adjust some of my stuff. I guess my response to this did not work. I have not yet got to fly in a customer's aircraft.
I agree with MintJulep and MikeTheEngineer. A certain amount of fieldwork is good for you.
If the work is dangerous enough to violate work place safety programs, than you have something to complain about.
JHG
One of my bosses once threatened to send me up in a customer's helicopter, after trying to adjust some of my stuff. I guess my response to this did not work. I have not yet got to fly in a customer's aircraft.
I agree with MintJulep and MikeTheEngineer. A certain amount of fieldwork is good for you.
If the work is dangerous enough to violate work place safety programs, than you have something to complain about.
JHG
- Thread starter
- #13
Thanks for the responses.
I guess I've come off sounding like I have not done any field work and don't like getting my hands dirty. Neither of these are true. Also, by dirty, I meant that there is more than just dust laying around. Respirators are required. All PPE has been furnished.
I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation contractor would do. No engineering work whatsoever. Again, no bonus, no extra pay, no comp time, nothing. Yeah I may sound greedy and harsh, but I think the company is acting greedy in this case.
Is there a line to cross? How far is it? I posted this question here because it is NOT an easy question to answer.
I guess I've come off sounding like I have not done any field work and don't like getting my hands dirty. Neither of these are true. Also, by dirty, I meant that there is more than just dust laying around. Respirators are required. All PPE has been furnished.
I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation contractor would do. No engineering work whatsoever. Again, no bonus, no extra pay, no comp time, nothing. Yeah I may sound greedy and harsh, but I think the company is acting greedy in this case.
Is there a line to cross? How far is it? I posted this question here because it is NOT an easy question to answer.
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DRC1,
Please don't be rediculuous. I don't understand how you equate "doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation" (and I doubt that last part) to being an engineer. After years in office and out (up to 750 mile long pipelines as an engineering construction manager), I will not let one of my engineers "carry a piece of pipe", or do any welding, etc. Qualified for the work is qualified for the work. A good "pipefitter" is a good pipefitter and s/he cannot be substituted by an engineer, just as I would not substitute a "pipefitter" as an engineer!
IMO the tasks as described are an inappropriate use of resources, probably on both sides of the asile, not to mention violation of any applicable union work contracts and a couple hundred safety violations.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
Please don't be rediculuous. I don't understand how you equate "doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation" (and I doubt that last part) to being an engineer. After years in office and out (up to 750 mile long pipelines as an engineering construction manager), I will not let one of my engineers "carry a piece of pipe", or do any welding, etc. Qualified for the work is qualified for the work. A good "pipefitter" is a good pipefitter and s/he cannot be substituted by an engineer, just as I would not substitute a "pipefitter" as an engineer!
IMO the tasks as described are an inappropriate use of resources, probably on both sides of the asile, not to mention violation of any applicable union work contracts and a couple hundred safety violations.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
That's another piece of this. If the average office engineer wouldn't be qualified for this work (as stated in the OP), but this engineer happens to have done this kind of work in the past, is it right to ask this engineer to do this work when another engineer in the same position would not be? The person who came straight from high school to college to job gets to sit at a desk, but the person with blue-collar background gets sent out to the (apparently literal) trenches? Imagine the backlash if an engineer who used to be a secretary was asked to cover the phones.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
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- #17
A few thoughts:
The word "qualified" brings up the question of OSHA (USA assumed). It would be violation to be performing hazardous work you are unqualified to perform. Tell management they will need to budget for fines, training, or both.
Exemption does not follow a glorified job title, it must go with the duties. The work you describe is not generally considered exempt. Check your HR laws.
Is this a non-union shop? Easily handled if there is a union, just quietly sugest to the shop steward that you are doing their work.
The word "qualified" brings up the question of OSHA (USA assumed). It would be violation to be performing hazardous work you are unqualified to perform. Tell management they will need to budget for fines, training, or both.
Exemption does not follow a glorified job title, it must go with the duties. The work you describe is not generally considered exempt. Check your HR laws.
Is this a non-union shop? Easily handled if there is a union, just quietly sugest to the shop steward that you are doing their work.
VC66, I've designed a few welded assemblies but am not a qualified welder, does that mean I'm no good?
I've done a few cable drawings but am not a qualified technician to do soldering, does that mean I'm no good?
I've designed lots of machined parts but only have the most rudimentary practical machining experience and am not qualified to run a CNC machine.
I've done drawings of bombs but am not explosively qualified to fill them with explosive myself.
The list goes on.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
I've done a few cable drawings but am not a qualified technician to do soldering, does that mean I'm no good?
I've designed lots of machined parts but only have the most rudimentary practical machining experience and am not qualified to run a CNC machine.
I've done drawings of bombs but am not explosively qualified to fill them with explosive myself.
The list goes on.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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