Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
-
Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
oil leak gulf of mexico 5
- Thread starter CH5OH
- Start date
There are hundreds of technologies that can be used to separate or adsorb oil from water quite effectively, nearlay all of which have been proven at one scale or another. The problem is accomplishing any one of them at the scale required to solve this mess. In the meantime, Mother Nature is left to her few inefficient and time consuming disbursement and breakdown methods. Some surgical red tape removal is needed as well as several thousand kicks to a few hundred butts.
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit![[frog]](/data/assets/smilies/frog.gif "[frog] [frog]")
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
Sounds like a fun project, but actually I think there's enough there right now.
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
In case any had not seen it, per a NYT article at and etc. some good ol’ boys have apparently sort of bypassed bureaucracy and taken matters into their own hands to protect “1,275 miles of bay and river coastline (that unlike what was apparently tried unsuccessfully for Mobile Bay also employs a good bit of solid steel – if they are able to ahead of the oil, one would think that they may be successful, at least until hurricane season, with moving a good bit of the oil at least a little further down the line).
Looks like profiteers arn't endangered spicies. I hope they have the "cages" ready for those birds.
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
EngineerTex
Mechanical
Halliburton is NOT owned by GE.
I cannot guess where this one came from, but it should be understood in no uncertain terms that Hallburton is not in any way owned by GE.
That being said, I would not be surprised if some portion of GE's employees' 401(k) program owns some tiny number of Halliburton shares, but that is not what was being implied by unclesyd.
Halliburton is traded on the stock market as an independent company (stock symbol HAL) and is not in any way whatsoever a division, subsidiary or department of GE. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that there aren't even any significant partnerships between the two companies.
Anyone have any info to refute?
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
I cannot guess where this one came from, but it should be understood in no uncertain terms that Hallburton is not in any way owned by GE.
That being said, I would not be surprised if some portion of GE's employees' 401(k) program owns some tiny number of Halliburton shares, but that is not what was being implied by unclesyd.
Halliburton is traded on the stock market as an independent company (stock symbol HAL) and is not in any way whatsoever a division, subsidiary or department of GE. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that there aren't even any significant partnerships between the two companies.
Anyone have any info to refute?
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
EngineerTex
Mechanical
Biginch, threatening to throw people in prison for selling the boom for the going rate only results in one thing -- massive shortages.
You can live in fantasy land where government agents come along like Barney Fife, trying to prevent the free market from working, but the rest of us live here in reality. And that reality is this:
There is a limited amount of boom.
There are multiple groups bidding on that boom.
The groups who want it will bid against each other to purchase the limited amount of boom in existence.
Because of the free market, we now have a situation where every single manufacturing facility in the country where boom can possibly be made will be making the boom 24/7. Why would that be? BECAUSE THEY GET A PREMIUM FOR BUSTING THEIR TAILS.
Here is the alternative offered by your draconian, totalitarian, top-down, central-planner lock-em-up-because-we-don't-like-them-making-a-nickel policy:
1) Prices are kept at the normal level
2) Boom manufacturers have no incentive to operate at full capacity.
3) Massive boom shortages ensue.
4) More dead coastline.
Your policy is classic stage-one thinking. You don't like anyone making money, so you implement policies which force people to suffer because you have no idea what the ramifications of your own policies are.
Your smug, do-gooding policy against "profiteering" coats more coastline in oil. Thank you. Your efforts have been a great help.
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
You can live in fantasy land where government agents come along like Barney Fife, trying to prevent the free market from working, but the rest of us live here in reality. And that reality is this:
There is a limited amount of boom.
There are multiple groups bidding on that boom.
The groups who want it will bid against each other to purchase the limited amount of boom in existence.
Because of the free market, we now have a situation where every single manufacturing facility in the country where boom can possibly be made will be making the boom 24/7. Why would that be? BECAUSE THEY GET A PREMIUM FOR BUSTING THEIR TAILS.
Here is the alternative offered by your draconian, totalitarian, top-down, central-planner lock-em-up-because-we-don't-like-them-making-a-nickel policy:
1) Prices are kept at the normal level
2) Boom manufacturers have no incentive to operate at full capacity.
3) Massive boom shortages ensue.
4) More dead coastline.
Your policy is classic stage-one thinking. You don't like anyone making money, so you implement policies which force people to suffer because you have no idea what the ramifications of your own policies are.
Your smug, do-gooding policy against "profiteering" coats more coastline in oil. Thank you. Your efforts have been a great help.
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
Profiteering may be the difference between a very good profit and ample incentive to produce on the one hand and taking unfair advantage of the misfortune of others to gouge obscene profits on the other hand.
The free market system works fairly well but one of the places it sometimes fails is the response to disasters such as hurricanes and massive oil spills. Governments do at times intervene.
Seems like a massive over-reaction to an offhand comment by BigInch.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
The free market system works fairly well but one of the places it sometimes fails is the response to disasters such as hurricanes and massive oil spills. Governments do at times intervene.
Seems like a massive over-reaction to an offhand comment by BigInch.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Thanks Waross. It wasn't really an offhand comment though. I thought about the situation and became quite outraged. If I were to make an offhand comment, it would be that I think I understand what a free market is much better than EngrTX. I learned what a free market meant, honestly trading marbles in second grade; not on Wall Street.
The plain facts are that this situation was not created by a free market and I think 4X $ is prima facie evidence that there's some profiteering going on. Profiteering is illegal, period. Here's the facts about a free market. Its easy to understand. If I made a super huge order, I'd get a super huge price discount. That's what happens in a free market. Sorry EngrTx, but that's the way I see it. Seems simple to me. Maybe something's blinded you. What happened, you have too much of BP stock in your retirement portfolio?
I really can't believe that there are people thinking like this, but then I live in a fantasy world. A place where if the GOM goes black, the sky falls in and the tsunami arrives, I don't think, "Hey what a "f*(&(*~@# fantastical opportunity" to make some a$$$$$$$". And I don't mind people making honest money. "Short BP" is my thread. Heck.. I even told you how to do it. Look at the date. But when it comes to profeteer's Gold or the Environment... Humm. That's a no-brainer. If there's anybody that thinks otherwise about this, I'd suggest you screw it on tighter before you go walking around, or pretty soon you're not going to have anywhere you'll want to go walking around.
As far as the solution to this boom thing, IF I was the govenor, I'd have the state police over there locking down that place straight away and I wouldn't hesitate a NY second declaring martial law and throwing the owners in jail immediately. MY emergency management team and EngrTx would be staffing it 25/8 with the National Guard to make sure that all the booms necessary were produced and sold on BPs credit at a reasonable price and the previous owner didn't get a **UK** £ for it. IMO, THIS "spill" is nothing short of a national emergency and EngrTX and a whole lot of other people need to start thinking like it is and declaring one, instead of lecturing me what a free market is all about while they let profiteering anos rip off the American people and what's left of the environment. Is that your idea of a free market? But I'm living in fantasy world, so what do I know? But I think I do know that I prefer fantasy to the, "Anything goes, if you can make a buck", of your world." That's probably how all this mess got started to begin with. Geez!
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
The plain facts are that this situation was not created by a free market and I think 4X $ is prima facie evidence that there's some profiteering going on. Profiteering is illegal, period. Here's the facts about a free market. Its easy to understand. If I made a super huge order, I'd get a super huge price discount. That's what happens in a free market. Sorry EngrTx, but that's the way I see it. Seems simple to me. Maybe something's blinded you. What happened, you have too much of BP stock in your retirement portfolio?
I really can't believe that there are people thinking like this, but then I live in a fantasy world. A place where if the GOM goes black, the sky falls in and the tsunami arrives, I don't think, "Hey what a "f*(&(*~@# fantastical opportunity" to make some a$$$$$$$". And I don't mind people making honest money. "Short BP" is my thread. Heck.. I even told you how to do it. Look at the date. But when it comes to profeteer's Gold or the Environment... Humm. That's a no-brainer. If there's anybody that thinks otherwise about this, I'd suggest you screw it on tighter before you go walking around, or pretty soon you're not going to have anywhere you'll want to go walking around.
As far as the solution to this boom thing, IF I was the govenor, I'd have the state police over there locking down that place straight away and I wouldn't hesitate a NY second declaring martial law and throwing the owners in jail immediately. MY emergency management team and EngrTx would be staffing it 25/8 with the National Guard to make sure that all the booms necessary were produced and sold on BPs credit at a reasonable price and the previous owner didn't get a **UK** £ for it. IMO, THIS "spill" is nothing short of a national emergency and EngrTX and a whole lot of other people need to start thinking like it is and declaring one, instead of lecturing me what a free market is all about while they let profiteering anos rip off the American people and what's left of the environment. Is that your idea of a free market? But I'm living in fantasy world, so what do I know? But I think I do know that I prefer fantasy to the, "Anything goes, if you can make a buck", of your world." That's probably how all this mess got started to begin with. Geez!
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
I'm thinking, many businesses are satisfied with a 15% profit. Many never see a 15% profit. That's the free market.
Now $850 net plus 15% profit = $1000. (That's the way my old sales manager taught me to calculate profit.)
Now sell that for $4000. That's $3150 profit on a $850 item. But it is $3015/$150 = 21 times a normal profit.
And yes I've been there and had the opportunity to gouge during the repairs after hurricane Mitch. I decided to keep the same rates as I had been charging before the hurricane, the rates that had been determined in a free market, not when someone was in distress.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Now $850 net plus 15% profit = $1000. (That's the way my old sales manager taught me to calculate profit.)
Now sell that for $4000. That's $3150 profit on a $850 item. But it is $3015/$150 = 21 times a normal profit.
And yes I've been there and had the opportunity to gouge during the repairs after hurricane Mitch. I decided to keep the same rates as I had been charging before the hurricane, the rates that had been determined in a free market, not when someone was in distress.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Not only are manufacturers raising the price of the 8' boom in violation of Florida laws on price gouging it is the new Copper. Florida has some very strict price gouging laws. I don't know what the limits are but the pantiles get tough very quick. Ask some of the gas stations after the last Hurricanes.
It got real interesting today when a 500 gal Al Tote Bin washed up on the beach at Panama City Beach, Florida and no one in the forty or are so emergency people knew what it was. It had a BP sticker attached so it is being treated as a hazardous waste. It very well could be sanitary waste.
There was another good one today at Gulf Shores Alabama where tons of oil washed upon the white sands, ugly and sad. There were several people in hazmat suits. the heat index was 106°F. One of the reporters ask the guy in charge whio was dressed in a white suit and straw hat what was going on. He said they were sampling this material to see if it was oil and also determine where it came from.
The also tried one of the brand new $87,00 beach cleaners to remove the oil and it clogged up in about 5 minutes. The official comment was that the oil was too sticky.
It got real interesting today when a 500 gal Al Tote Bin washed up on the beach at Panama City Beach, Florida and no one in the forty or are so emergency people knew what it was. It had a BP sticker attached so it is being treated as a hazardous waste. It very well could be sanitary waste.
There was another good one today at Gulf Shores Alabama where tons of oil washed upon the white sands, ugly and sad. There were several people in hazmat suits. the heat index was 106°F. One of the reporters ask the guy in charge whio was dressed in a white suit and straw hat what was going on. He said they were sampling this material to see if it was oil and also determine where it came from.
The also tried one of the brand new $87,00 beach cleaners to remove the oil and it clogged up in about 5 minutes. The official comment was that the oil was too sticky.
- Thread starter
- #94
looks like this thread is heading in a direction I didn't want it to go.while some ideas were raised, most of repplies going in the direction of the impact of the pollution, which is a side effect of the leak.
there used to be some time in shipping industry were a loyds open form was used to deal with a ship in distress.It required the captain of the ship to sign the open form.Advantage of such a system was that a third party was taking over, with an unlimited budget.This way they could focus on the problem at hand without distress or loss of profit contraints.As distress/pressure limits the ability of humans to think clear, emergency systems should not be more complicated than counting to 3 (like an emergency stop button)
clearly BP suffers from stress from facing bancrupty
clearly the US goverment suffers stress from facing a popularity blow
I heard on this site of the world they even got some hollywood involvement(cameron, costner)???
Question remains how to seal off that damn leak??
Without the restriction of having to think under stress,
any bright ideas?
there used to be some time in shipping industry were a loyds open form was used to deal with a ship in distress.It required the captain of the ship to sign the open form.Advantage of such a system was that a third party was taking over, with an unlimited budget.This way they could focus on the problem at hand without distress or loss of profit contraints.As distress/pressure limits the ability of humans to think clear, emergency systems should not be more complicated than counting to 3 (like an emergency stop button)
clearly BP suffers from stress from facing bancrupty
clearly the US goverment suffers stress from facing a popularity blow
I heard on this site of the world they even got some hollywood involvement(cameron, costner)???
Question remains how to seal off that damn leak??
Without the restriction of having to think under stress,
any bright ideas?
CH5OH,
For all practical purposes the relief welds are the best and possibly the only hope. I asked someone that is very close to the drilling of one of the RW wells, in fact right on top of it, to give me a confidence estimate on the possibility of success, the best answer for the conditions as known now is 80+ %. This number will move as they approach the actual intercept zone. As it has been put to me there are more things that can go wrong that ones that can go right during such an operation. I think the max number of RWs tried is 7. The only problem is that if these two fail it is 60-90 days before another try.
The biggest problem working around the BOP is that the condition of casing and cement liner below isn't known with any degree of confidence. Too much information is being held too close to vest by BP and select few to allow any credible outside input.
They are now going to add some pressure sensors on the BOP to help with the flow measurement.
In my opinion the government doesn't have on expert in it's
employment to be inspector #9 on anything that goes on. They totally have to rely on what BP tells them. They just named a coast guard officer, no experience in the oil industry or spill clean up, to act as a sieve for ideas about the spill.
The oil booms mentioned above are INHO are useless as the proverbial f__y in the whirlwind. Work very well in calm waters, and are made use less by any wave action at 1/2 their diameter. Any current negates any effect they might have. They tried some in Pensacola and Perido Passes where the current can get to 7 knots and they went down like a submarine on a crash dive. The oil goes right over the top. A couple of areas are here they are using brages as breakwater and booms inshore.
At present it doesn't look good for this area. i caught my first red snapper in the GOM in 1939 and it looks like I may not live long enough to catch another one.
For all practical purposes the relief welds are the best and possibly the only hope. I asked someone that is very close to the drilling of one of the RW wells, in fact right on top of it, to give me a confidence estimate on the possibility of success, the best answer for the conditions as known now is 80+ %. This number will move as they approach the actual intercept zone. As it has been put to me there are more things that can go wrong that ones that can go right during such an operation. I think the max number of RWs tried is 7. The only problem is that if these two fail it is 60-90 days before another try.
The biggest problem working around the BOP is that the condition of casing and cement liner below isn't known with any degree of confidence. Too much information is being held too close to vest by BP and select few to allow any credible outside input.
They are now going to add some pressure sensors on the BOP to help with the flow measurement.
In my opinion the government doesn't have on expert in it's
employment to be inspector #9 on anything that goes on. They totally have to rely on what BP tells them. They just named a coast guard officer, no experience in the oil industry or spill clean up, to act as a sieve for ideas about the spill.
The oil booms mentioned above are INHO are useless as the proverbial f__y in the whirlwind. Work very well in calm waters, and are made use less by any wave action at 1/2 their diameter. Any current negates any effect they might have. They tried some in Pensacola and Perido Passes where the current can get to 7 knots and they went down like a submarine on a crash dive. The oil goes right over the top. A couple of areas are here they are using brages as breakwater and booms inshore.
At present it doesn't look good for this area. i caught my first red snapper in the GOM in 1939 and it looks like I may not live long enough to catch another one.
Remember the freeze of '81, was it? Below 32 for a solid week. Fishing took 5 years to "recover" from that one, if you could call it recover. Might never from this.
CH05, I think all the tricks are used up. That's the problem, isn't it, and none of the tricks were ever proven for deep water, except on the computer screen.
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
CH05, I think all the tricks are used up. That's the problem, isn't it, and none of the tricks were ever proven for deep water, except on the computer screen.
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
- Thread starter
- #97
as I am not used to use abreviations to a great extend, I had to look up on wikki what a BOP was.What struck me on the two explained designs (ram design with shears and annular design): while the first one is only an emergency device, which can cut the dril bit if needed, the second seems to be an emergency device as well as an operating device (to keep the pressure below).something you use during normal operation doesn't keep the same value when needed in emergency operation (it wears down)and should therefore have a back up.then of coarse the design isn't a closing on failure.all factors leading to a disaster.
- Thread starter
- #98
Another difference. There is a drill stem or pipe through the center of the hole. The annular seal seals around the drill pipe. Some may also seal the hole when there is not a drill pipe in the hole.
Then there are opposed gate-valve type valves that have cut-outs to seal around the pipe.
BUT, these close the riser or casing but leave the drill stem open. I think that this drill stem is 6 inches or so in diameter.
The drill stem has to be sealed on the rig.
The shears are a solution last resort. Once the drill pipe has been sheared and possibly several miles of pipe dropped into a well casing with pressure and kicking issues, using the shears may be very expensive to recover from.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
Then there are opposed gate-valve type valves that have cut-outs to seal around the pipe.
BUT, these close the riser or casing but leave the drill stem open. I think that this drill stem is 6 inches or so in diameter.
The drill stem has to be sealed on the rig.
The shears are a solution last resort. Once the drill pipe has been sheared and possibly several miles of pipe dropped into a well casing with pressure and kicking issues, using the shears may be very expensive to recover from.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
CH5OH There is a great difference in risk-safety-benefit levels. Yes the lunar missions were not proven, but everyone understood the risks, 3 very willing volunteers killed, a fireball or lost in space scenario and .. of course, loss of face to the Russians. The loss of face risk probably a worse consequence than the others. What was the risk here? Was the risk to safety relationship understood? Was the massive environmental damage possibility ever contemplated? Was the worse case evaluation even made.
I have a feeling that, if the probability of success for this project was calculated at all, the reliability of the BOP was calculated 20 years ago for < 100m water depth, entered by a clerk that didn't know what it meant, grabbed from a database by some other program without any understanding of the significance of life or death, used in a calculation procedure that never really considered the probability of failure, except as the mathamatical value of 1-P(success), printed out to some financial project evaluation sheet, where again nobody knew what that number meant other than in financial terms ranking projects by potential profit, and even if the probability of success was only 90% as limited by a BOP or other equipment failure, the last program only evaluated that (unacceptable) 90% against the 100 Billion dollar profit and found it to be an acceptable financial risk-to-profit-potential, and that was that. In short, somebody selected the project without ever having crossed their mind of the possibility that it could turn the GOM into 10 shades of black. I think it was selected based only on 2 possible outcomes, 90% x 100 Million lost vs. 10% x 100 Billion gained, or -$90,000,000 vs +$10,000,000,000. If you had an MBA which one would you take?
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
I have a feeling that, if the probability of success for this project was calculated at all, the reliability of the BOP was calculated 20 years ago for < 100m water depth, entered by a clerk that didn't know what it meant, grabbed from a database by some other program without any understanding of the significance of life or death, used in a calculation procedure that never really considered the probability of failure, except as the mathamatical value of 1-P(success), printed out to some financial project evaluation sheet, where again nobody knew what that number meant other than in financial terms ranking projects by potential profit, and even if the probability of success was only 90% as limited by a BOP or other equipment failure, the last program only evaluated that (unacceptable) 90% against the 100 Billion dollar profit and found it to be an acceptable financial risk-to-profit-potential, and that was that. In short, somebody selected the project without ever having crossed their mind of the possibility that it could turn the GOM into 10 shades of black. I think it was selected based only on 2 possible outcomes, 90% x 100 Million lost vs. 10% x 100 Billion gained, or -$90,000,000 vs +$10,000,000,000. If you had an MBA which one would you take?
"We have a leadership style that is too directive and doesn't listen sufficiently well. The top of the organisation doesn't listen sufficiently to what the bottom is saying." Tony Hayward CEO BP
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question