On-line Masters of Science in Engineering degrees 6

[geostruct]

I am actually expanding this from another thread.

I understand that an on-line school is not the conventional way of obtaining a graduate degree for engineers. However, as I understand it, what are the academic advantages of going to graduate school in person? Heres my list:

1. Ability to work in teams with students.
2. Ability to ask professor for help in person.
3. Attend classes in person.
Let me know if there are any other academic advantages that I am leaving out.

Here is how I would counter those advantages with the online degree:

1. On-line Engineering graduate students still do team projects with other students. Except in this case, most of the communication is done over the phone or email etc. This is how a majority of the communication ie conf calls, emails, phone calls is done in industry, right?
2. The same general answer as #1, except for anyone who is working at the time, if you cant get your answer from the professor over the phone/email, why not ask colleagues at work to help explain? I'm sure they would spare a few minutes now and then to help you improve your technical capabilities.
3. I believe that a technical engineering graduate degree is something that you should WANT to get. If someone is able to read chapters, study examples, do excercises online etc., why shouldnt this be sufficient as a graduate degree? Graduate degrees are meant to be a primarily an independent study anyway, right?

Everyone struggles when they need to balance work, family, school, and other personal issues. The business world has certainly adapted to people obtaining their on-line MBAs, and I know that business classes are different than engineering classes, but isnt it time for engineering to evolve and adapt now as well?

What does everyone think?

 

[frv]

Sure they do.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/eng/civil

That's Civil.

They don't distinguish between sub-disciplines in Civil, but they certainly distinguish between major engineering disciplines.

 

[Lion06]

Georgia Tech does offer a number of MS programs via distance learning (though not CE or SE). Here is the link

http://www.cdl.gatech.edu/dl/servlet/edu.gatech.dl.news.ViewNewsDetails?NEWS_ID=21

 

[Lion06]

nice!!

 

[jpankask]

The link given above was the "best buys" and so started with the cheapest (in-state) degree and moved up from there. It is not a complete list of graduate programs offered online. In fact, someone mentioned Purdue, and they do offer distance learning graduate degrees (

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ProEd/),

though not structural I believe. As stated before also, Georgia Tech has been offering distance learning master's degrees for many years now. There are many others.

 

[jorton]

Atomic,

I got a BSCE from Auburn and am just finishing my MCE from Norwich. I am happy with both degrees. We had our week long residency on campus recently, and I was very impressed with the intelligence and depth of thought of my cohorts. It was very different from my undergrad experience. I think you get out what you put in. If you plan to do the bare minimum required to pass, then you might get a better education at a better ranked school. If you plan to fully apply yourself then the school doesn't matter so much, IMHO. A huge part of being an engineer is developing the ability to teach yourself and to figure out problems without someone demonstrating step by step. I found that the online format worked very well with this philosphy. I had to figure it out, but I had knowledgable professors available to help me when I got stuck. It may not be your cup of tea, but I would do a little more research before ruling such a large number of schools out.

 

[geostruct]

Right, the link I gave above was just a "best buy" list of accredited schools....

I agree with some of you that say a Masters degree is what you make of it. I dont believe you should have to go to a top tier school to get interested in the subject matter. If you go for a MS degree you should be interested and self motivated to study. If you have that, you will be asking questions (online in the class forum or in class) and have intersting discussions about any subject you desire to talk/learn about.

I think it all changes if you want to go to school for research, and eventually get your phd. Obviously the top schools have more to offer because of the more distinguished professors.

Jorton-
I agree with you. IMO, a MS degree gives someone a broader base of knowledge/technical skills in their specialty. It is up to the engineer to expand and apply that broad base to specific projects they deal with in practice. Regardless of where/how an engineer gets an MS degree it really depends on how they apply it in practice. It is what the individual makes of it.

Jorton, you say the online format worked well for you. What were most of the formats? Discussions on boards like this through the class? Independent studying/reading text? Videos? Group/individual projects? Homework?

I think we will see a lot more of these in the near future, especially with ASCE/NCEES proposing a BS degree+30 additional credits as a minimum for licensure. What better way to become an expert in your specialty than by working in practice for PE's, and taking online classes to strengthen your technical skills? Seems like a good combination of learning for a younger engineer in an educational and an industry/practice format simultaneously. You get your research project experience on a daily basis at work.

 

[B16A2]

I looked into USC and it lost its coolness when I found they charge $4500 per online course. Personally $45000 is as expensive as quitting work for a year and a half bit steep for a MS.

I looked into Norwich and I don't mean to offend anyone, but half the curriculum I did during undergrad and most courses look introductory at best.

http://www.graduate.norwich.edu/civilengineering/curriculum_overview.php#0C

 

[Lion06]

b16a-

Agreed that Norwich's curriculum looks a little weak (no offense to anyone who may be in the program), but check out NCSU's course offerings. Scroll all the way through and look for all of the structural classes, there are some in the 500's and some in the 700's. They definitely look more like you would expect in a grad program. I don't see anything "weak" about those.

http://www.ce.ncsu.edu/distance/courses/list.html

 

[jorton]

No offense taken, and you should guard your $30k to $45k well. The Norwich curriculum turned out to be more challenging than was expected, and I wasn't a slacker as an undergrad. If you want to become a seismic expert, or some other speciality, then it is probably not the right program. It does provide a much deeper study into the materials and methods that we most often use. I think it is more alligned with what we actually do at work rather than the academic side of the profession. I'm definitely not trying to be their salesman, I'm just suggesting folks look a little deeper. When it comes down to it I worked with idiots that had degrees from big name schools and very intelligent people with degrees from small schools. I don't think the school name on the degree makes that much difference.

Geostruct,
The format was the same for most of the classes. The information was presented through powerpoint/pdf lectures with LOTS of independent reading (usually from multiple sources). Occasional videos would be used to demonstrate principles. The professors were always available through discussion boards, email and even phone if necessary. There was LOTS of homework. Typically a paper and a design homework was due every week. There were several independent projects and several group projects. The group projects work just as most real life projects do. The work was divided and we used email to communicate and to put together our final products. There were required weekly discussions on various topics which really helped us get to know each other. I wasn't crazy about going the online route, but I knew it was the only way I would get the additional education. I am glad now that I did it.

 

[Lion06]

Ok, well it does sound like there is A LOT of out-of-class work! Like I said, I certainly meant no disrespect. And like you said, don't judge too quickly.
As far as the school name on the degree not making that much of a difference......... I am firmly in your camp there.

 

[zdas04]

jorton,
That sounds like a hell of a program. My experience in on-campus MSME was considerably less effective. Every MSME program that I've looked at is as far from "what you do at work" as earthly possible. We spent a LOT of time doing esoteric arithmetic and delving into derivations. I can't think of the last time I saw a working ME or PetE even look at a PDE and a Laplace must be a location in France. I wish my program had been more (maybe some) real world and less ivory tower. Are all MCE programs you've looked at that practical?

David

 

[jorton]

zdas04,
I really have no way of knowing. They all put a lot into their marketing, but I don't think you can really know if its true unless you go through the program. I think with the MS with thesis you take around 15 hours of class and the rest is thesis work. With the MCE you end up taking 30 to 36 hours of class. There is obviously more room for practical classes in addition to the advanced math and analysis classes.

BTW, I think Norwich has reformatted their program. When I went through there were 10 - 3 hour classes and 1 - 6 hour class. It included one advanced math class, two advanced analysis classes, three advanced design classes, three business classes, a MEP/GIS class and the capstone. I think they may have tried to combine all of this into 6 - 6 hour classes. I'm not sure how well that works, so I really can't speak for it.

 

[doberdorks]

My daughter recently completed her degree, and the worst part of the experience for her was the "team projects". She had to do all the work and share the credit with the slackers. I think that would be even worse when you can never get face to face with your team members.

Sounds like excellent preparation for the real world to me -- solve problems despite challenges.

SLH
who remembers just about killing & being killed by team members over disagreements about the English language but everyone pulling their weight.

 

[HgTX]

I had two memorable team projects.

One taught me that sometimes it does help to have multiple minds on a project, even if I might think I'm quicker on the uptake than any of the other individual minds. I've always been a control freak because I don't trust the other kids at the crayon table to do it right; this project allowed me to let go of some of that.

The other got me some interesting pre-management experience. My teammates were such idiots that I was having to stay up all night correcting their work just to bring it up to mediocre. I finally got permission from the professor to forego the team experience, and instead got the experience of firing them.

I agree that team projects in school can quite mirror the real world. The poster's daughter having to share credit with slackers is a good example. Another is the guy on another team of mine who just plain put his foot down and wouldn't listen, and we lost credit (real world equivalent: didn't win the project) because his solution wasn't optimal for filling the stated criteria--because he read some other criteria between the lines and wanted to satisfy those instead.

One that so far I can't quite imagine in real life is where one guy went ahead and did the whole project himself before the rest of us got a chance to do anything. It wasn't about taking credit; we all got the grade. But homework is given for a reason--to force the students to have the learning experience. Without a project left to do, the rest of didn't have the self-study discipline to redo the work ourselves just for the learning experience, and so none of us got that learning experience in the end. Or is there a real world analogue to that as well?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[hokie66]

Team projects are a relatively new thing in education. My opinion is that the expressed reason for them is as doberdorks said, "preparation for the real world", but the real reason is so the instructors don't have so much grading to do, and so the institutions can continue to pass high fee paying students who wouldn't be able to do the work on their own.

 

[geostruct]

hokie-
Team projects also allow students to learn from each other. Teachers try and foster learning through every channel that is possible for obvious reasons.

As far as online team projects go...What better way to prepare you for the real world than teach you how to communicate with your team members through email, phone, and discussion boards. After all, isnt that how a lot of collaboration is done between offices throughout the country and world?

 

[hokie66]

geostruct,

You say it teaches teamwork. I say it teaches how to avoid individual responsibility.

 

[geostruct]

hokie-
I suppose we can agree to disagree, but you certainly have a pessimistic view on it. You get out what you put in. If you do a majority of the work, then you get more out of the project than the teammates who did minimal work. This further emphasizes that the name of the school or going to school online or in person does not make a big difference if you are simply broadening your knowledge. I would hope that people getting their MS degree in engineering would give a damn about the classes and not try and stiff teammates with the work just to avoid it.

I guess I'm not aware that there didnt used to be as much teamwork in classes. I'm surprised it took so long for universities to begin requiring it.

Here is an excerpt from ASCE's Body of Knowlege guide, which is supposed to prepare the Civil Engineer for the future. The M or 30 means MS Engineering degree or 30 continuing education credits.:

"The M or the 30 portion of this path can be accomplished equally well by traditional campus-based courses or by distance learning delivery systems, or a combination of the two. In the future, all of the 30 might be delivered through independently evaluated, high-quality, standards-based educational programs offered by firms, government agencies, professional societies, and for-profit educational organizations. Clearly, distance learning and independent educational programs are likely to become more prevalent and important in the future for both degree and non-degree granting programs."

The rest can be found at:

http://www.asce.org/files/pdf/profe...45CCDDAD8D&jsessionid=cc302781161216260065697

So apparently ASCE understands the future of these programs and recognizes them. ASCE also is known for strict educational guidelines including the notion to require a masters degree or equivalent for licensure.

 

[Gymmeh]

The devil in me says, there are lots more women on campous.

 

[vpl]

Gymmeh

Which is not a good thing for those guys who are married.

Patricia Lougheed

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.