P.E SEAL a question of ethics 2

[radekw]

I am a recent graduate engineer working for a structural engineering company in Canada. I work directly under the supervision of professioal engineers licenced in Ontario and they take responsibility for my work by directly reviewing and stamping/signing my work.
My company also does work in the U.S. and recently I have been involved with a project in the state of New York.
No one at the office here has a P.E seal from New York so we hired a P.E with a New York seal to stamp the drawings for us. The issue is that he doesn't actually review the drawings but instead he has provided us with a scanned copy of his signed stamp with a direct reference to the project written across the stamp.
Are there any legal issues regarding this type of use of the P.E seal? I use his stamp on letters that address specific issues the contractors may have, but I also sign the letters myself; could this be considered forgery even though I technically have his permission to use the stamp?

 

[sms]

You need to look at the law in New York, but that would not fly in Texas at all.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[MiketheEngineer]

That is basically illegal and in violation of the Code of Ethics in any state that I know of. I am licensed in almost 40 states. THAT engineer could easily lose his license for this type of conduct.

Actaully - you too could be reprimanded and/or fined.

Figure out a better way!!!

Even better - any engineer having knowledge of this type of conduct is compelled to report it to the State.

 

[JAE]

MiketheEngineer is absolutely correct.

 

[rday]

Ditto MiketheEngineer and JAE.

This engineer certainly does not have "Responsible Charge" of the documents he is sealing. This is called "plan stamping", and is a license law violation everywhere I know.

 

[IRstuff]

He has completely abrogated his responsibility as a professional engineer and should be dealt with.

TTFN

 

[zdas04]

As you can see from the uninamity of the above responses, this is not a "gray area". To keep from getting splattered when the wrongness comes to light, I would point my supervisors toward this thread and ask if there might be a better way. That might get you fired, but it might also keep you out of jail if something really comes apart.

David

 

[TheTick]

I think if he's taking your money then it is reasonable to expect him to look at drawings and stamp them. otherwise, he is basically just selling his stamp. Probably not legal in most (all?) states.

 

[whyun]

What is the usual penalty for licensed engineers "plan stamping"?

Unlicensed Practice citations typically results in an administrative fine around $1000 to $3000, rarely exceeding $5000, without a jail term.

 

[zdas04]

Reading through the lists of board-actions in the states where I'm licensed, the thing that happens in every case is loss of license. Many companies are then directed to change their company name (can't have "Engineer" in the title without a PE in responsible charge). Then the fines are in the range you mention, rarely as much as $5,000.

The "jail" comment was in regard to the cases where something meets the standards for "gross negligence" and the engineer is found liable for criminal charges instead of just administrative discipline. This happened on a car park in Florida, and I think on the Hyatt sky-bridge collapse in Chicago (but I'm not sure) in the '80's.

David

David

 

[whyun]

So it is in the best interests of the public that "in responsible charge" be clearly defined by the government, preferably a consistent definition across the board.

I am 100% against "plan stamping" or "lending" of licenses. But in many larger national and international firms with many branch offices, "borderline plan stamping" occurs quite frequently.

In the case of the original poster, I believe the work is performed by well qualified engineers in Canada. As long as the New York engineer reviews the plans with due diligence and has authority over the direction of the design, it may not qualify as a case of "gross negligence".

Also, correspondence, faxes and other material that are not a part of the contract document need not always be stamped and signed (it depends on the AHJ policies). As long as the EOR is forwarded all information and is given the opportunity to review and approve, Canadian engineer may act as a representative on the EOR's behalf.

 

[rday]

whyun,

You mean like this one from Colorado Revised Statutes, Title 12, Article 25, Part 1.

(14) "Responsible charge" means personal responsibility for the control and direction of engineering work within a professional engineer's scope of competence.

and expanded in the By-Laws & Rules of the State Board:

http://www.dora.state.co.us/aes/Rules-PEPLS.pdf

The issue noted in the original post was:

"he doesn't actually review the drawings but instead he has provided us with a scanned copy of his signed stamp with a direct reference to the project written across the stamp"

I can't think of a more clear act of plan stamping (Here's my seal, put it on your drawings) No control, no direction.

 

[whyun]

"He does not actually review" is a clear violation. What is a usual penalty for such offense? (assuming nothing falls down) $1000? In any case, it is really irresponsible and stupid.

I've seen previous postings related to plan stamping but can you be in responsible charge of engineers working in a different state? Say, a staff in your branch office.

 

[JAE]

Hey radekw - why don't you post his name and all of us here will take care of it for you. (just kidding ... sort of)

 

[EddyC]

radekw,

Someone cannot give you "permission" to use their stamp in any way that you feel like. If the authorities found out that you were doing this, they would probably fine you as well as the NY guy and maybe even ban you from getting your own license.

 

[JStephen]

What he is doing is clearly wrong, as pointed out above.

Some states specifically allow an engineer to thoroughly review work done by someone else and stamp it if they are in agreement with it. Other states require the engineer to be in responsible charge of the work done in the first place, which prohibits the review-and-seal practice. Check the board rules. They are available online in most states.

 

[sms]

I really think you need to make the New York PE board aware of what this guy is doing. Going forward will likely save you from being implicated yourself.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[zcp]

radekw,
How do you know he does not review the drawings? Did he tell you specifically (personally) to use his stamp for all drawings and letters and he did not want to see any of them?

Find out the whole story before you proceed. If it ends up that your company is using his stamp in a way he does not authorize, your company could be in equal trouble.

While your initial description of the situation is dire, sometimes the recent grad does not have the full picture.

I think each and every one of us here would want to get the full story before throwing people under the bus. If it turns out he is plan stamping, then he should be disciplined. But let's not forget the trial process and innocent until proven guilty before that.

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[geodan]

ditto zcp. From the initial description, the engineer is clearly in the wrong. However, it would be prudent to ascertain all the facts and evidence before going forward or making any absolute dununciations.

 

[SylvestreW]

Plain and simple, it's wrong.
Personally, I would contact the P.E. and explain the situation, and ask that he review all the work as necessary and stamp himself.
I would also let your boss know of the situation and explain that the NY engineer needs to do the review.

IF the NY engineer chooses to not review but still stamp, at that time I would take it a step further.

But definitely protect yourself and DO NOT stamp anything on his behalf.