Porter ranch methane leak 8

[moon161]

The Aliso Canyon gas leak:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliso_Canyon_gas_leak

is a leak in a gas well connected to the sort of underground natural gas storage facility, which now is supposed to represent 1/4 of california's global warming footprint, and is sickening thousands in the nearby neighborhoods, not to mention the freaky infrared pictures of the methane plume

Apparently the self-regulated utility removed a shutoff valve decades ago

http://www.laweekly.com/news/what-went-wrong-at-porter-ranch-6405804

I think environmentally, this will make the VW scam look like peanuts.

 

[zdas04]

Last night I was curious about how much mercaptan is actually in natural gas. Never having worked downstream or distribution that detail had always fallen into the definition of "easy" (i.e., "someone else has to do it"). I learned that there are a half dozen different odorant chemicals that people outside the trade lump into the category of "mercaptan". These chemicals have widely varying toxicity.

I read the odorant laws for 5 states, the ISO, and 4 countries and they were all about the same. Several industry documents had much the same data. All say that the threshold for reliable detection is 10 ppbv (it has a scent at 1 ppb, but less than half of the population can pick it out). They all say that there should be enough odorant in the natural gas to detect it at 1/5 of LEL (generally taken as 1/5 of 5% or a methane concentration of 10,000 ppmv. That is where all the laws and industry guidance stop.

To have at least 10 ppb in a mixture that is 99% air and 1% natural gas, it seems to me that the natural gas must have had a concentration of 1% odorant. That seemed like a lot, but I've approached it from a couple of different directions and got the same answer. Does that number seem right to anyone else? The permissible exposure limit is 10 ppmv for "methyl mercaptan" (there really isn't any product by that name still on the market, but the name persists).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[zeusfaber]

The final stage arithmetic would lead me to 1 ppmv, rather than 1%: 10 ppbv when diluted to 1% (diluted a hundredfold) suggests 10 x 100 ppbv = 1 ppmv in the neat product.

In terms of my mixing question, I think what you're telling me is that unmixed volumes of heavy vapour tend to sink before they inevitably mix with everything else; that, once mixed, they stay mixed (in the mixed state, the heavier components no longer sink relative to the others) and that it is the difference between these two behaviours which is counterintuitive enough to the lay observer to make it worth pointing out. Makes sense - just never had to worry about it before. Thanks.

A.

 

[Compositepro]

From Google:
Common mercaptan doses are in the range of 2 – 4 ppm (by volume, to gas).

 

[Compositepro]

On the topic of separation of gasses:
Take for example salt and water. Salt is denser than water and will sink rapidly. It can sit in the bottom of a glass for hours or days but eventually it will completely dissolve and be at a uniform concentration throughout the glass. What drives the mixing is molecular diffusion, which also causes Brownian motion (think marbles bouncing around in a box).
Salt water can form a fairly stable layer under a layer of fresh water. But eventually the layers will mix. Once mixed, salt never separates from water due to gravity. In gasses the rate of diffusion is orders of magnitude greater than in liquids.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Just a reminder of what the people in New Orleans had to endure:

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/...ectoral/media/images/photos/day-6/katrina.jpg

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[zdas04]

That was really bad. I don't think that anyone said it wasn't. Here's a video from Gulfport, Mississippi Today it is hard to tell there was ever a problem.



David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JohnRBaker]

The problem in New Orleans was that national flood insurance cost the average homeowner something over $2,500/year. For most of the people living where that picture was taken, $2,500 meant the difference between eating or not.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[zdas04]

The cost of flood insurance was about the same all along the Gulf coast. Nothing special about New Orleans EXCEPT that a significant portion of the population decided to be victims and sit back and wait for the government to take care of them. I had some friends that went to the Superdome to ride out the storm and they were ashamed of the way that that place was left by the citizenry of that fair community. Being poor is not an excuse for tearing out partition walls or tagging all the walls with spray paint or slinging human waste at the walls. My friends lost everything and had to tear their house down to the foundation and start over (and did it with sweat equity). They were back in their new house in 9 months and were fully disgusted by their neighbors sitting in FEMA trailers and complaining that the government wouldn't rebuild their house.

I've been poor. I've lived in very poor communities. I've never found "poor" an adequate excuse for "slovenly". The problem in New Orleans (where there are still neighborhoods that still have more condemned houses than occupied houses) was an "entitlement" mindset that has pervaded the community. There are some great people who call New Orleans home, many of them are quite poor, none of those folks saw FEMA as a long-term solution and had arranged for alternate accommodations within a few months of Katrina. There were too many people of every race that just changed their address for their welfare checks to the FEMA trailer.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JNieman]

So what lessons should be drawn from the aftermath of Katrina that apply to the Port Ranch methane leak? I feel I'm missing the point.

 

[zdas04]

JNieman,
I made an offhand comment that the people who chose to leave their homes (there really wasn't any "forcing) were similar to the people who continued to live in FEMA trailers for years after Katrina. Mr. Baker took very strong offence and claimed that I was denigrating the noble inhabitants of New Orleans who had no choice by to live on the dole for a decade. I thought that conversation was over until the Mr. Baker posted the picture this morning. I am not wired to let something like that stand. I should have been the bigger person and just ignored it, but I've seen what other Gulf Coast communities did after the storm and find it amazingly offensive to attribute any nobility to New Orleans.

A post above from cswilson indicated that his office is in the area and many of his co-workers stayed in their homes through all of this "disaster". The implication I made was that the "thousands" of displaced families are the moral equivalent of the citizens of New Orleans living in FEMA trailers for years, except those "FEMA Trailers" are hotels located closer to their workplaces than their actual homes are.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JNieman]

. I am not wired to let something like that stand. I should have been the bigger person and just ignored it

Possibly so. John isn't the only one who took exception to your assessment. You're only making it worse with every post, as well. Please move on.

 

[LSPSCAT]

Unfortunate that peoples minds so quickly give negative connotations to ZDAS04's remark.

I do not know ZDAS04 or anything about him, but I know ZDAS04 is only communicating with best intentions what he knows in his heart is the solution to adversity. He is communicating that hard work, perseverance in the face of adversity is what allows us to succeed everyday. We, as a self-selected group of engineers participating in an engineering forum, all embrace these tactics every single day in our engineering duties. If your are an engineer with any experience you have been kicked when down, failed, laughed at probably behind your back, and had to make do with scarce or non-existent resources. But we keep coming back, we fight, we persevere through our mistakes and ultimately we succeed. Many of us also apply these lessons to our life outside of work. We hold ourselves to this standard so why cannot we hold others to this standard? Do we think others are inferior and not capable of commitment, perseverance, and hard work? I would question those with their immediate negative outlook on ZDAS04 what their true feelings really are. He knows what would work for him, get out clean up the trash, bucket out the water, and find a way to make it work...one 2x4 at a time. No one is coming to help you and it is up to you. When you make a mistake, have a construction company calling telling you that you are holding up a $100K a day operation does anyone bring dinner and make sure the coffee is still on at 1:00 AM? No, you stick it out most often because by that time all the project champion cheerleaders are long gone and now it is your fault the company is loosing money and your neck is on the line.

You can say that a small example is not as great as loosing your home, however, the philosophy and answer is the same. We succeed through self-reliance, it does not mean we have not been helped or exist in a vacuum, but when things get rough it comes down to you.

We of all groups, the engineers, the problem solvers of the world know what it takes to get things done and succeed. To not communicate and share this knowledge of how we operate would be a failure. We hold ourselves to these standards, why should we not hold others to this standard? View it from the constructive side, if everyone had the resolve and perseverance the country would be a better place. There are countless examples of this at work all over the country; towns flood, tornadoes come through, peoples homes burn down, businesses burn. It is the reaction to these occurrences which determine the final outcome.

Instead of looking at it as negative, please view it as constructive, he is sharing what he knows works and wishes others could perceive there problems in the same light. It has worked for us, why cannot it work for others?

 

[JNieman]

So... how 'bout that methane?

Latest news and commentary:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/02/16/energy-secretary-porter-ranch-gas-leak-symptom-of-age/[/URL]]Local and state air-quality regulators announced Tuesday a set of criteria for determining whether the air over Porter Ranch is safe again after the methane gas leak from the Aliso Canyon storage facility was capped.

The South Coast Air Quality Management District and California Air Resources Board said they will continue to monitor the air quality and use infrared cameras and other equipment to make sure the well is no longer spewing methane.

...

Secretary of Energy Ernest Moniz, who toured the natural gas storage facility Tuesday, said the environmental disaster is a sign of aging energy infrastructure that needs to be updated and calls for stronger gas storage regulations.

“Frankly, gas storage fields need a fresh look in terms of some of the regulatory requirements,” he said.

Rep. Brad Sherman said the environmental disaster serves as a wakeup call. “It’s a very good wakeup call. But the call, like any alarm clock, the closer you are to it, the likely you are to wake up. People in California hear that alarm.”

The president of Save Porter Ranch said he did not hear anything new in terms of saving his community. “Again, it’s another somewhere down the road, something might be done by someone, some regulation. Have a nice day,” Matt Pakucko said in frustration.

Political commentary is interesting yet:

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/feb/16/porter-ranch-leak-regulators-reform/[/URL]]SoCalGas, a subsidiary of San Diego-based Sempra Energy, faces misdemeanor criminal charges for waiting three days to report the leak and multiple lawsuits and official investigations. But state officials deserve scrutiny and criticism as well. In a 2014 regulatory filing making a case for a rate hike, SoCalGas cited the need to upgrade wells to prevent leaks. There is no evidence that this triggered any sense of alarm among state regulators. Meanwhile, the San Francisco Chronicle reports that implementation of a 2014 law requiring the California Public Utilities Commission and state utilities to set up a standardized process to closely track and regularly report gas leaks remains a “work in progress.”

This article has a pretty good context for where 'The Porter Ranch Leak' falls in the scheme of methane released into the atmosphere, which many have touched on, already, in this thread:

http://www.greenbiz.com/article/porter-ranch-leak-plugged-we-have-bigger-problems[/URL]]The EPA is expected to propose new regulations on methane leakage this summer. But even as the natural gas industry works on tamping down its methane leaks, there’s yet another, much larger, source of methane emissions we need to address: Organic waste.

There are hundreds of millions of tons of decomposing farm and food waste, yard waste, municipal wastewater and other organic wastes generated across the US. Their total methane emissions dwarf those of the natural gas industry. For example, municipal wastewater and solid waste alone give off 11.5 million tons of methane — more than 100 Porter Ranches a year, or about 25 times all methane leakage from the natural gas industry.

Emissions from organic wastes are spread literally everywhere throughout the country. And while they are nowhere near as concentrated as at Porter Ranch, they still accumulate in the atmosphere. They are a quieter, but a much bigger and more insidious factor in climate change than emissions from the natural gas industry.

and then it turns into a sales pitch for biogas. I'm not criticizing biogas - I'm rather ignorant of the hard facts about it on a macro scale.

The frustrating reality of most legislation persists across all sectors... react to the popular problem, not the most effective problem.

 

[zdas04]

JNeiman,
The first quote was pretty consistent with most of the reporting on this leak. The references to "spewing", "disaster", and "save our community" have filled the media for months.

The second quote was quite useful and brings some information that has not been readily available. The "evil corporation" rhetoric that has been so common has been toned down to "we tried to adjust our rate base to be able to afford to address our aging infrastructure, but were denied". Much the same comments as [finally] came out months after the San Bruno explosion and the Plains All American Pipeline oil leak into the ocean last summer.

The third quote was a touch premature. At natural gas prices less than $2/MSCF, developing widespread biogenic methane harvesting would be very much like our current wide-spread wind power exercise--we keep dumping federal and state money into companies that have no intention of deploying a competent product. The biogenic methane harvesting effort is developing in the private sector and the rate of evolution is staggering. A number of cities are harvesting land-fill gas to run turbines for power generation quite successfully (and there are conferences where municipalities share best practices). A large number of cities are looking at or have started processes to configure new land fills to better facilitate harvesting methane with an eye towards generating power in the future. It is very common in feed lots, pig farms, and dairy farms to take the animal waste to anaerobic digesters and using the waste heat to heat barns and greenhouses while extracting the methane to generate electricity and the sterilized waste as a soil supplement. Hundreds of fantastic examples of great engineering. I am really scared that once it gets on EPA's radar we'll see federal dollars flowing into the field in magnitudes that attract the hucksters. Low natural gas prices are slowing the government-ization of this field (it makes sense to process waste to avoid paying for power as long as you can use the waste heat and sterilized waste productively, but processing waste for the natural gas grid puts you in the position of spending $6/MSCF to sell it for $2/MSCF).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

My house has a built-in methane leak; it was built over and semi-depleted oil field, as is much of Orange County, and there is a vent pipe built into one wall of my house to vent the methane that comes out.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

faq731-376 forum1529

 

[zdas04]

For nearly 100 years College Extension departments have been telling people all over the world to seal the annular space on their water wells and provide a vent pipe. Since all the noise about methane in water wells the last few years I've been looking at these vent pipes with sniffer technology and by far the majority of water wells I've looked at (even in places without active Oil & Gas development) have had some amount of methane in the vents. The problem comes when you ignore the advice and don't vent the annulus. Then the gas can build up to a few ounces and burn at your tap. Not an industry problem but a home-owner problem.

Your house vent is pretty common.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[ornerynorsk]

IRstuff, I understand that the charm and ambience of gas yard lights are making a return in some areas. Hmmm, a little plumbing . . . . . .

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[IRstuff]

that could certainly help. The vent is on the same side of the house as the street light, and that's been out for about a month.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

faq731-376 forum1529

 

[cranky108]

Sometimes it helps to call the utility or city about street lights being out. How else would they know except if they see it while driving around at night.

On the other hand, street lights can be of several different colors, or sizes (light output or shape), where gas lights seem to have a limit on the shapes.

 

[bimr]

California Faces Blackouts in Wake of Massive Gas Leak

http://www.pddnet.com/news/2016/04/...et_cid=5222083&et_rid=89814086&linkid=http://

http://www.pddnet.com/news/2016/04/...=5222083&et_rid=%%subscriberid%%&location=top