professional development hours 10

[renee04]

New York has just started requiring PDH's (professional development hours) How do people feel about this?

 

[GregLocock]

I think it is an excellent idea. I use this to insist that I receive at least some company sponsored real training each year - if they want to employ professional engineers then they havethe responsibility that their skills remain current and improve.

How may hours are they suggesting? 80 is the norm in the UK and Australia.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[JoeTank]

15 PDH hours per year is typical in most states that require continuing education. It really ain't much!

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[renee04]

The two of you are the first I've heard that are for it. NY is requiring 12 pdh's per year. I'm upset because most of the ways to get PDH'S require an outlay of money and if the company you work for doesn't financially support this effort than that's a lot of money out of someone's pocket. Currently, I'm living in Missouri and fortunately I can take for free seminars at the University here but I'm not getting "solid knowledge" from them that helps in my job. The purpose of PDH's is to gain knowledge to help in your job yet some of the classes that would aid that are not considered PDH's.

 

[denoid]

I'm registered in 6 states, 3 of which require me to keep track of pdh's. Two of them require 15 per year, one is 12 per year.

I keep involved with local chapters of professional organizations such as ACEC (American Council of Engineering Companies) and CASE (Council of American Structural Engineers). I do Committee work for them, which allows me an automatic 2 pdh's per year per committee. Them monthly meetings are usually breakfast or lunch meetings which oftentime have speakers on technical subjects. For an hour's worth of attendance at breakfast or lunch (for which it is easy to make up the time), I can get 1 pdh per technical luncheon or breakfast attended. Going to about a half dozen or more per year adds 6-8 pdh's to my slate for the cost of a breakfast or lunch - (you don't get that at Denny's or Perkins).

My company sometimes will invite technical sales representatives to put on lunchtime seminars to our department on their product. The rep's often will spring for box lunches or pizza, and give you their sales schpiel on their product and teach you new things about the industry in the process. Result: 1 pdh per sales rep with a free lunch.

I'm very religious about documenting all of this, by the way, in case any of the states where I'm registered ever ask for a list of what I'm doing. I keep a spreadsheet of the activity, dates, speaker's name, topic name, length of time of attendance, and pdh's earned (typically 1 pdh for hour of attendance). If the organization gives out a certificate of attendance, even better.

Some of my colleagues also write papers for organizations or for submittal to technical magazines, for which you can also get pdh credit.

You don't have to lose a lot of work time or go bankrupt by paying for University sponsored events or Technical Organizations who are in the business of making money off poor engineers needing pdh's. I think I've attended one such event in the past 3 years, and that was only because I thought I could learn something from the topic. In that case, we made sure we got a group discount for attendance.

Hope this helps someone who needs the ideas for cheap pdh's. Good luck.

 

[GregLocock]

That's interesting. I've just checked and no longer have to sign a statement saying that I have completed X hours of CPD!

It always seemed to be promoted as a bit of a money-making scam to me, by the institution.

Nonetheless, it would seem odd NOT to have a plan for improving one's abilities. As a professional you don't need anyody elses approval of what constitutes development, I think reading an engineering book cover to cover could count. Or learning a new mathematical technique. Or a programming language. In fact anything that could be conceivably useful in your future career.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[EddyC]

I'm getting some of my PDHs from the self-study articles in Architectural Record magazine (Downloadable from the web). NYS accepts AIA units for engineering PDHs. NYS will accept half of the PDH requirements from these articles. The other half needs to be from "in person" seminars, courses, etc. Architectural Record charges $10 per article (1 PDH).

As far as how do I feel about the issue of mandatory continuing education? Its theoretically a good idea, but there's no way to mandate that an employer pays for it & gives time off for it, and this is a real problem.

 

[monkeydog]

denoid & EddyC,
The way you describe the PDHs it seems as if what we do here on eng-tips would qualify for PDHs. Although most of my time is spent as a "troll", I do pick-up some good info.

 

[denoid]

Monkeydog:

Interesting thought!

The only trick would be to be able to prove to the State Board of Registration of the state you're trying to convince:
1. That Eng-tips.com represents authorized professionals in the subjects you're reading about;
2. The number of hours you actually spent reading threads, and how you could prove it.

I'm all for it (I think Eng-tips.com provides a valuable source of ideas, discussion, & mentoring, even when I disagree with some of the responses I read).

If anyone can come up with a way to document our involvement for legitimate pdh's, go for it!

 

[greenone]

But in NY, the provider of the training must be approved by NYS. I doubt the sales reps are "approved" training providers. Living in CA, it's going to be tough to maintain my NY PE, especially as I work for a small firm that will not pay for me to travel to training sessions. I agree with the continuing education requirements, but I am not pleased with the restricitons NY placed upon how to count them.

 

[renee04]

Greenone, I too, have my registration in NY and live currently in Missouri. I wrote to NY Dept/Ed and they said that taking seminars at my local University was o.k. as long as it was ABET accrediated. I was worried about finding DPH's out-of-state that would be acceptable and affordable. I am not happy with NY for their handling of PDH's at all. You only get 9 hrs for writing an article for a professional publication. The amount of time it takes to fully research and write one article is more than 9 hrs and is an important contribution to the industry and should be valued more.

 

[denoid]

So far, none of the states where I'm registered that require pdh's ask for "pre-approval" of training speakers. I suppose it could become a problem in the future if I get audited, but I think only if I try to apply it too loosely. The sales reps we've had speaking to us at lunchtime seminars have all been licensed PE's and quite knowledgable in their particular product. The sales products have all been things we use in our daily work. I'd have to believe that would be more legitimate than me registering for a paid seminar on some product or design method I'd never use. But then, I'm not on the Board of Registration, either. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, if ever.

 

[GregLocock]

Wow. I would stir them (and the membership) up pronto about this. Who, exactly, do they think they are? Write to your magazine, wring the board up, explain to them that this sort of marketing is completely unacceptable in a professional organisation.

There is, in my opinion, nothing particularly wrong in requiring a certain number of hours per year in professional development, but to decree that /they/ are the arbiters of what is acceptable is treating you like children.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[dirtguy4]

I have a question concerning PDH's. PDH's were developed by the professional associations to make sure that engineers were kept on the cutting edge of technology. So why is it that the engineers that really need to take note to this concept are the ones that struggle getting their yearly PDH's and the ones that really don't need to worry about PDH's never have any trouble? Just an observation I've noticed over the past five years with colleagues I've worked with. It just seems that "the good ones" always seem to have their nose in a book and are always learning, and the "not so good ones" seem take the easy courses like "Work Place Anger Management" that isn't benefitting their engineering knowledge, but rather just providing numbers they can put on their PDH's. Maybe I need to take that anger management course, regardless engineering isn't just about the numbers, it's a life committment to learning. I know we can all get busy with our work and careers and loose sight of the bigger picture, but try to take these PDH's seriously, they make us better engineers. Find a course that excites you and take. Who cares if the company pays or if you do, take it, you'll be a better engineer in the long run. Do that five years running and you'll be an expert in your field.... I guarantee it!

 

[GregLocock]

I think one problem here is: who decides what is acceptable?

My strong opinion is that burying my nose in a maths book and learning about Hamiltonians is PDH. So is learning a new programming language.

Obviously institutions that want to sell me lectures won't agree. I am quietly confident that learning about Hamiltonians and improving my programming skills will do far more for /my/ career than any number of lunchtime lectures on "Implications of XYZ legislation on your company" or whatever else they can knock out in a couple of days of hard research reading magazines and self help books.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[renee04]

Hi, this is Renee and I started this thread. I agree with Dirtguy4. That's my argument against PDH's. Good engineers don't need someone else telling them to keep current and build their skill level. The so-so engineers will take the easy way out and take "fluff" classes to meet requirements. Greg is correct, I'm studying different software programs that I need for my job, even if I was doing formal class study this won't count.

 

[zdas04]

I'm looking at the New Mexico Web page (which is pretty similar to a couple of other states that require PDH's that I've looked at) and they award credit for the following types of activities:
- Active participation in seminars, courses, in-house programs, workshops, training, professional conventions, correspondence or videotaped courses (1 hour=1PDH)
- Successful completion of college courses (1 semester hour=45 PDH, 1 quarter hour=30 PDH)
- Successful completion of courses offering CEU credit (1 CEU=10PDH)
- Teaching or instructing above courses/activities for the first time only (1 hour = 2 PDH)
- Authoring a published paper, article, or book (10 PDH)
- Active participation in professional and technical societies (each orginization, 2 PDH/year)
- Each patent (10 PDH)
- 1 yr subscriptoin to technical journal (1 PDH, max 2 PDH)
- 1 hour of literature review (1 PDH, max 6 PDH)
- Each civic or community activity (1 PDH, max 4 PDH)

The list has some qualifiers at the bottom, one that applies to the discussion above is "Presentations by Product/Equipment Vendors & Plant/Factory Tours are eligible only if: - Presentations are of a technical nature and not just a sales demonstration; and - part of a formal training session; not normally obtained in the course of licensee's work". That says pretty clearly that having a vendor bring in donuts and a tech speil is legitimate PDH's.

Seems like eng-tips would fit nicely into the next to last category, I'd document the time just like you do vehicle mileage - with a log.

This list seems to have enough latitude to allow anyone to persue professional development in the way that best fits their personal learning style and needs. The requirement is 15 hours/year reported every other year. In the last 6 months I've documented 31 PDH's. Don't think 30 will be a problem.

Dirtguy4, the ones that go to "anger management" for PDH's are the guys that used Cliff Notes and asked to "borrow" your homework in college. Other than the fact that you'll eventually be working for them, they aren't worthy of your consideration.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[franzh]

Here in Texas, for my certification, I must attend 8 hours every FOUR years! Fortunately, I teach the certification courses. My daughter-in-law, an RN, must attend 40 hours every 2 years. My other daughter-in-law, a physical therapist, its 32 hours for 2 years. Neither of my sons (one an Army officer, the other two are computer programmers) have PDH requirements, although the Army has continuing training requirements.
In the US, there is a voluntary certification program for automotive technicians, and the testing is every 4 years with no CEU required, just the testing.
Franz

 

[ChipFuller]

I'm glad this post came up. I'm in Utah and the state just started it's program last year. It's 12 PDH/year. Here's my questions-I got on the internet and found a website call

http://www.pdhonline.org/.

Is it a legitimate place for PDHs?

And here's Utah's statement on PDH's:

Credit for qualified continuing professional education shall be recognized in accordance with the following:
(a) unlimited hours shall be recognized for professional education completed in blocks of time of not less than one hour in formally established classroom courses, seminars, or conferences.

Is an online course considered for this? I called the state and they were pretty wishy washy and wouldn't answer the question.

Thanks
Chip Fuller

 

[denoid]

Chip:

In my several years dealing with the pdh issue in various states, I've found that they all want to leave it up to you to make an educated guess what they will and will not ultimately accept. Many times the staff of the registration board can't and won't answer your question about acceptable courses, because they don't want to be on the hook for making an incorrect interpretation of the law.

Bottom line is that none of the states have the funding or staff to chase down every registrant to see what they're doing with the pdh law.

Sorry to say, I've gone to making my own best guess on what is and isn't acceptable in each state I'm registered in. If I happen to be one of the unfortunate individuals who gets audited in their lottery, I'll make my case then when they question the contents of what I list. Typically, however, I try to be true to myself, and only take classes based on whether they will assist me in my profession - whether they qualify for pdh units is secondary in my book.

(By the way, many states do recognize online courses, but I can't speak for Utah).