Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit 2

[patprimmer]

A recent thread about some guy trying to justify disabling his ABS lead to the above topics being broached in an ad hock manner.

I have seen over the years many opinions and some statistics on the complex issues raised above.

I have serious doubts about some opinions and data, and wonder what the truth is.

I will throw up a bunch of open questions, or provocative statements to catalyse some discussion, and hopefully identify some fact and myth.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
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[EnglishMuffin]

I totally agree that race driving ability has nothing to do with road safety. I vividly recall that the great British ace Stirling Moss was an atrocious driver on the public roads when he was at the peak of his career on the track - he failed to stop after a collision on at least one occasion, and finally had his licence revoked, whereupon he continued to drive in Britain on his US license, using a legal loophole. In the same era, Mike Hawthorn was killed when he crashed his Jaguar on the Guildford bypass shortly after becoming the F1 world champion, probably through overconfidence. I myself feel that I was at my most lethal to other drivers in my early twenties, when I was at the peak of my skills behind the wheel (such as they were). In those days I used to pray for wet weather so that I could go as sideways as possible as often as possible and thought nothing of spinning out on occasion. Luckily I didn't kill anyone.

However, I am against many forms of safety legislation such as seat belts and crash helmets, and in many cases blanket speed limits, regardless of whether they save lives, since I am by nature a libertarian and against "nanny government". In the UK I drove far faster than in the States, and much closer to the limit of adhesion, but I got only one speeding ticket in fifteen years of driving. In the US, I long ago lost track of the number of tickets I have received, although in recent years it seems to me that US limits are far less rigidly enforced, and are now usually exceeded on the interstates by 10 to 15 mph by almost everybody. I believe that in the US, speeding tickets are partially a revenue creator and do not reflect much on the safety behavior of the individual driver, which I think the following incident demonstrates. Through inattentiveness in an SUV, I once almost missed my exit on a divided state highway, braked heavily while turning, and lost it, spinning through a 180. It didn't bother me particularly, but it did bother the cop in an unmarked car who was waiting to pull out of the exit. And he gave me .... a warning! I believe it was the only dangerous thing I have done on US roads to date, touch wood. Perhaps ABS and/or attitude control would have helped, but then the vehicle would probably not have stopped as quickly, and since I came to rest about ten feet from a stationary truck, that might have been a problem.

I agree that US driving habits are terrible compared with those in Europe, particularly regarding lane discipline. When I first came to the States, I had to take a written driving test, and studied the relevant booklet. I remember being mystified by the admonition to "stay in your lane", and "do not change lanes". Of course, coming from Britain, I was used to changing lanes all the time, and spent about half my time overtaking other vehicles on two lane roads. But of course, I had good lane discipline like everyone else over there and never overtook on the "wrong" side. I think this "stay in your lane" mentality is what has led to the poor lane discipline in the US.

I don't much care for any kind of automated driving safety aids - even cruise control. But my greatest fear is, and always has been, falling asleep at the wheel. There is reportedly technology being developed which will do something about this, which I would support.

 

[mburgess]

One much overlooked aspect of safety is road design itself. To consider is, surface, drainage, paved shoulder area, lane width, crossover barriers. There seems to be high tension wire dividing sprouting out of the ground everywhere here in Australia at the moment. From a motorcyclist point of view this stuff looks like a cheese grater.
Regards,
MB

 

[GregLocock]

Jetmaker

You don't need to know how an airbag works. If you have modified your driving style because you now have airbags please let me know where you are driving and I'll give you a wide berth.

All of these driver aids (traction control, ABS, EBD, active steer) have the ultimate aim of linearising the vehicle response. This makes it much easier for the AVERAGE driver to cope with extreme situations.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[TChronos]

Let me throw in a few cents....

Training. There are many types of driver training:

- Initial "driver's ed" to get your first license. This is indisputably of value in reducing road accidents.

- "Special ed"...race training, skid pad training, etc. I don't see much value for road drivers. Although my race training did get me to buckle up, every time.

- "Defensive driving" insurance companies in the US offer discounts for various types of defensive driving courses. I think most people take them for the discount, and it's in one ear, out the other.

Experience is probably the best teacher, as with mpst activities involving physical coordination.

As for government actions. I have a friend who sells radar cameras, the ones they use to track people who run red lights. The sales pitch is that ticket revenues can more than pay for the device if the "yellow light" time is shortened to whatever the NHTSA minimum is. I have no doubt most ticket campaigns only serve to fund more ticket campaigns. Are there any studies relating highway incidents to traffic enforcement?

The biggest safety problem we have in the US is that everyone is TAUGHT to drive in the leftmost lane. I can remember learning that from my father, and every driving teacher I had repeated the lesson...get over to the left as soon as you're on the highway. So you end up with someone poking along at 55, and everyone rushing past on the right. Madness.

Seat belts can do most of what air bags can, if they are used. I think that side air bags offer unique benefits. We'd also be a whole lot better off if people would drive something smaller than Mt. Everest. Vehicles with a lot of mass are a menace.

Color? There's an interesting one. Cops certainly like to ticket red cars, I'll tell you that from personal experience. But I think that blue is the most accident prone color.

 

[rmw]

EM,

As long as traffic law enforcement is seen by the authorities as a revenue thing rather than a safety thing, the problem will persist. If they wanted safer drivers, they could have the problem solved in about a week, if they had that many ticket books pre printed.

However, then we would all toe the line, and their revenue streams would dry up. They give just enough tickets to keep everyone "sort of" in line, and not so many so as to dry up their precious revenue.

Changing the topic to "stay in your lane." I have learned something about USA driving in countries like Venezuela, Mexico and Brazil, among others. We north americans drive with a "I'm an American, and I have my rights, and this is my lane, and you are not entitled to it, and I will hit you head on and kill both of us just to prove that I have my rights".

While in Venezuela, an expatriate north american commented to me once, when I pointed out that I had witnessed a scene where a vehicle passing a vehicle, (one was the bus I was riding in, passing a heavy truck) met two oncoming vehicles, both passing each other on a road that it would have seemed would barely have permitted one vehicle to pass only one other, both going the same direction, and every one scooted over, huddled up, (at about 90 klicks) and while it was very close, it worked out quite well. Nobody panicked, no single finger gestures, just making it work.

The ex-pat stated that the drivers there (venezuela in this case) drove with the mentality that 'these roads aren't too good, and we are all going to have to do whatever it takes to get down them together.'

I watch this "this is my lane" mentality daily, where I have to turn off a 4 lane street into my office complex, and the driveway has an abrupt step up into the parking lot, so that it is mandatory to come to almost a complete stop before proceeding into the parking lot. Time after time, to my amusement, people behind me will come to a virtual stop rather than just shifting to the left lane and going around me. This is consistent, even when traffic is virtually non existant, which does happen at times.

So, don't let me find you in my lane, or I might have to head on you just to prove my point.

rmw

 

[patprimmer]

rmw

Interesting point.

In the countries where cars and a reasonable supporting infrastructure have been a very common part of our everyday life since before we were born, we have a set of values, habits, skills and customs re their use that has evolved over generations. When we see the chaotic and confused driving styles in the third world, we tend to consider them unskilled and dangerous.

Despite our presumed superiority in this regard, if we encounter a situation as listed above by rmw, even though 2 lane roads are sealed 22 to 24' wide, with smooth verges on either side, and most cars are less than 6' wide, such a situation would often result in a fatal head on or at least someone completely off the road. Surely if all involved were conditioned to co-operate, rather than blindly follow rules, and insist on rights, such incidence would be much safer.

Is this driver training, or psychological conditioning?

Maybe a holistic? approach to training would help.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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[patprimmer]

Now to be really controversial

I wonder what is the gross national cost to operate the motor vehicle fleet, including an hourly rate for the drivers and passengers for any given developed country, for say a year.

What level of efficiency are these machines being operated at. Would this be a level acceptable for other equipment being used in industry.

What would be the net cost of changing the operating speed when considering, running costs, maintainance, staffing costs and direct and indirect cost of failures and accidents.

Should we drive faster or slower?

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[evelrod]

I made a couple of races in Mexico City, '73 and '80. I noticed that the freeways were marked out in lanes as in the U.S. but no one botherd to use them. I was told that the lane markers indicated what was supposed to be the normal traffic pattern, not necessarily the maximum. ie., it was not at all unusual to see SIX cars wide on a FOUR lane freeway!

Interesting questions,Pat, but I 'gotta make a race in Vegas this weekend so I'll see y'all Tuesday.

Rod

 

[IRstuff]

But there seems to be lots of roadside shrines, at least in Baja, anyway.

TTFN

 

[evelrod]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are just as many shrines in AZ and CA if you look. Baja is aptly named "Baja CALIFORNIA"---The rest of Mexico, most of it anyway, is not at all like Baja! I have towed race cars and ridden a motorcycle all over Mexico many times and as long as I stayed away from the American tourists, all went well. I hope that doesn't come off sounding too harsh, but it's a sad situation. Lo siento mucho, pero---

Rod

 

[jetmaker]

Greg,

My major complaint about these devices is that it removes the driver skill from the operation. ABS does not linearize a vehicle response. Stopping distances still vary depending on road conditions, speed, vehcicle weight... so what is it linearizing?

It is important to know how the system works IMO. Having driven early ABS equiped vehicles, I found the locking/unlocking action very unnerving. My first response was to remove my foot from the brake and pump like I had been taught. If I had not known that ABS did this, I might have made a bad situation worse.

Being originally from where snow was a common occurance, I much prefered having a full, yet manual, 4x4 system, and no ABS. I found that the traction control would switch in and out, leaving me in situations where it would not engage when I was expecting it to. Likewise, it engages when I would rather it not. Maybe this makes me a control freak... who knows, but I would rather be in direct control of my vehicle than a co-pilot of it.

I just feel that some of the technological advances are actually lessening our ability. Computers, calculators, automated machinery... these may all make us more efficient, but they also disconnect us from the actual skill involved to get the result.

Later,
jetmaker.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

In my C5 Corvette, at least you can turn off the traction control and the active handling, but not the ABS. I am one of those people that even hates automatic transmission. When I first came to the States, I rememeber bemoaning the fact that nearly all US cars were so equipped, and an old guy in the office where I was working said "well, the trouble is, in this country they make cars for women to drive". This piece of jocular misogyny struck me as odd, because as a matter of fact I knew that even Queen Elizabeth was still pretty good with a stick shift - she learned to drive ambulances in WWII, at a time when women drove just about everything in Britain, including busses, with no power steering! So I think the reason for the love of "automatic everything" in the US lies elsewhere.

 

[patprimmer]

What!

No takers on the cost of speeding vs the cost of wasted man hours question, and comparing acceptable risk vs cost in industry vs roads.

Is this to political, or not true engineering?

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[IRstuff]

skill?

You'd rather be doing numerical integration point by point? I'm getting answers on problems that would take days to do by hand.

Think big picture...

TTFN

 

[GregLocock]

I'll post two replies

<Pat>

First you'd need a graph showing the 'cost' of speeding. I bet you can't find one, far too political.

The other bit is easy, of course.

<Jetmaker>

You did not understand what I meant by linearising.

If I brake at 0.3 g in a non ABS car, and turn the steering wheel, I go round the corner.

If I brake at 0.7g in a non ABS car, and turn the steering wheel I am quite likely to either plough on straight ahead or spin the car.

This is a non linear response as far as the driver is concerned. He's done the same thing in similar situations, yet in one case the car does one thing, in the other something else.

If I brake at 0.3 g in an ABS car, and turn the steering wheel, I go round the corner.

If I brake at 0.7g in an ABS car, and turn the steering wheel I will go round the corner.

The ABS car is more linear.


We shouldn't build cars for skilful drivers. We are catering to the 0-95th percentile driver, you know, the one who doesn't check his tyre pressures, who only replaces tyres when they are blatantly illegal, the one who thinks not being allowed to talk on his mobile phone while driving is an infringement on his personal liberty, the one who thinks that they can succesfully drive at 70 mph on a tightly packed freeway while yelling at the kids in the back seat and trying to stop them fight. Even, I dare say, YOU, occasionally.

If you want to use your skilz, go to a circuit. Road cars on public roads are not entertainment devices. (OK I'm being hypocritical here, but that is my /professional/ opinion).

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[enginebob]

Something to consider. You wouldn't want people that are not qualified and experienced to fly an aircraft with you or others as passengers would you? You would want them to be very highly compentant, and skilled. And even more so in aerobatic flight, especially if that aircraft hits bad turbulance and flips over. Same goes for driving a car. Most people that are allowed to drive these potentially dangerous vehicles, are them selves afraid of the machine. And they most generally are so over loaded with trying to operate the vehicle they panic at every little thing that happens while on the road. Especially such things as hydroplaning in rain and slipping in ice. A high speed handling training program should be required to get a drivers license.

 

[evelrod]

Well, enginebob, I just can't leave this one alone. For the last 30 years, at least, I have been preaching driver training. I have found one thing that appears to absolutely cast in stone---cars don't vote! As long as 99% of the drivers on the road DO NOT POSESS THE NECESSARY SKILLS OR PRACTICAL TRAINING to avoid getting into emergency situations, and/or getting out of them, AND those very same drivers consider themselves ABOVE AVERAGE, there will be no revolution in skill training. (Sorry, Greg. 0 to 99th percentile is MY professional opinion based on U.S. drivers) Just try to pass legislation restricting driving privilage in California and see how long your political career lasts! As long as this "ME" generation exists or until some catastrophic occurance, things are likely to continue 'as is' for the indefinate future. That leaves "safety" in the hands of the engineers.
If we can't prevent an accident, we can at least make it survivable.
If we can't increase the skill level of the driver, we can at least make the automobile easier to control.
If we can't change the political nature of driver licensing, we can at least make accident avoidence our goal---for our own safety.
I truly understand the politics in all this and I often find myself totally frustrated by what to me seems such an easily correctible situation, but to the folks in gov't. seems so totally unsolveable!

End of soap box.

Rod

 

[jetmaker]

Greg, Rod,

Greg,

Thanks for the clarification on the linearizing. I see your arguement.

Rod,

It is funny how the car manufacturers preach safety, yet install moving maps, TV systems, radios, vanity mirrors on the driver's side, etc....


Honestly, better training/regulations will not improve the situation unless it is a recurrent training. I took a very well respected driver's ed course when I was learning. Although it gave me many skills that I might not have picked up, I must admit that not all the things I learned then do I still practice.

 

[patprimmer]

Rod

I do agree with driver skill training, but not really as a safety issue, but as a time/money saving issue.

I think there is evidence to support the argument that increasing a drivers skill and a cars handling and road holding, eventually increases confidence, resulting in the driver "using up" the extra safety margin by driving faster and closer.

Passive safety is another issue as I don't think it really increase our confidence, as drivers do not consciously drive to avoid fatal crashes, they consciously drive to avoid damaging their car.

jetmaker

I do not agree that it is a car makers responsibility to self legislate by removing features with marketing appeal, as this will only result in reduced sales for that car rather than increased safety on our roads. People will always buy what they want, not what is best for them.

To have a real effect, this needs to be done by government regulation, so the feature is unavailable no mater what brand or model is chosen by the buyer.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[Maui]

Based on what I have seen from behind the wheel in the US over the past 20 years, I conclude that a substantial percentage of drivers (probably greater than 50%) knowingly exceed the legal limits of vehicle operation on a daily basis. And they do so for their own convenience, to get where they need to go more quickly, believing that they will not be stopped and ticketed by the police. I suspect that this has more to do with their mindset and attitude than with any safety equipment or driver training that they may or may not possess.

As an example, if you were to sit on the shoulder of the road with a radar gun during rush hour on a major highway where the posted speed limit is 65 mph, what percentage of the drivers do you think will be traveling at or below the posted speed limit? 30%? 20%? Most would agree that the number is certainly below 50%. Why do they do it? They do it because they can get away with it, usually without suffering any consequences for this actions. Over time, if this is taken too far some drivers develop an attitude that the most important thing for them to do is to get where they are going, ignoring their responsibility for the safe operation of their vehicle. And this can have tragic consequences.

You can put state-of-the-art safety equipment on a vehicle, but I think that the average driver does not "push the limits" because they rationalize that this extra gear provides them with an additional margin of safety. I believe that they push the limits because they don't experience negative consequences for their actions. That is, until they get into an accident. The question is, how do you change the average driver's attitude to prevent an accident from happening in the first place?


Maui