Saw something scary on my vacation 7

[TehMightyEngineer]

So, I went on a grand vacation a few weeks ago. Great time, visited my home state and had a blast. However the hotel I stayed at, while a nice enough hotel, definitely had some age to it.

The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).

Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.

So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.

Thoughts?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

 

[benhadad]

Common ethics would say that everyone has a duty to warn about potential dangers. Usually the law only hold specific individuals responsible, such as property owners, workers, manufactures etc. Or individual who have some control over the situation and have a well rounded knowledge of the situation. Of course someone might with good reason make a good enough legal argument to win a case against anyone where than can prove the individual knew of the danger, and failed to take reasonable precautions to ensure safety of they individuals that they know would be put in danger way.

For example when an individual see an accident they could be held liable to damage if they failed to call for help. Many states have laws saying you are not to leave the scene of an accident until law enforcement arrives. You might not be required to render aid if you don't have the needed skill set. However a EMT or nurse who do not render aid [

http://scrubsmag.com/emt-faces-criminal-charges-after-reportedly-failing-to-provide-care/

] in some areas could be charged with a crime.

As an engineer you have sworn you would uphold a similar ethics principle as doctors and other professions and if you are an registered engineer the state ask you to be an advocate for public safety. In your case one would determine the seriousness of the matter (immediate failure) verse future failure. Then notify (best via certified mail)[

http://www.geoffreyleaver.com/our-news/engineer-duty-warn-risk-danger-exists/

]. the property owner. In many cases it would be fine to assume that the property owner once notify will take the required action as required by law. Follow up would only be required if you were given a sound reason to believe that the matter was not going be handled {for example your letter was rejected or returned} or you were hired to perform the inspection.

The book "A book entitle "Legal Aspects of Architecture, Engineering and the Construction Process" page 302-304 covers such information. It seems that most professional will normally not be held responsible until they are compensated for their services.

As regards wording a simple letter stating, "The balcony in room xxx is dangerous and should be repaired" is probably all that is required you of your moral/ethical obligation. If you have any questions I think that as Terratek says you can call the local code enforcement and ask for their advice. If you want something more substantial then an consultation with a lawyer would perhaps answer your question "to the fullest extent of the law"!


Other references
[

http://www.tuckerellis.com/news_publications/publications-36

]
[

http://www.constructionrisk.com/201...-warn-general-contractors-employee-of-danger/

]
[

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=77b7aafc-4d06-4a73-bdd0-c4ab3697ad0a

]
[

http://www.cavignac.com/publications/professional-liability-update-jobsite-safety-part-1/

]

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Wow, while I've already sent the letter so it's not needed, that's some seriously detailed advice benhadad! Star for you for putting in the effort, those links are great references.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[CANPRO]

TME, I was thinking about this the other day...did you ever get a response from the Hotel managers? I would be interested to hear how this followed through.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Got the return receipt for the certified mail but haven't heard back from the hotel. I was going to give them another week or two before I sent out another letter politely asking for a reply. If they don't reply back to that then I will probably just walk away.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[waross]

Thinking outside the box;
What is the opinion of those with more experience than myself on the tactic of contacting the AHJ or State Board and asking for guidance.
Dear AH.
"If a competent person sees a construction that is or may be dangerous to the public, how would the AHJ wish that person to proceed?"
Is it safe to ask a question that induce the authorities to take some action.
Then the AHJ would be part of the paper trail also. The AHJ may take over so as to CYA, themselves. ("Cover Your Assets".)

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[BUGGAR]

I have to take some kids to Disneyland so I prepared the following rough draft in case I find any structural problems there. I would appreciate input to improve this. Especially for the wording.


Correspondence To: Authority having jurisdiction (City of Anaheim Building Department or whoever)

Subj.: Observed Structural Deficiency at (Disneyland or wherever)

Dear AHJ:
My name is Kazhyu Truubul and I am a Structural Engineer licensed in the state of CA, License No. C12345. On (date) I was (at Disneyland or wherever) and I observed the structural deficiency described below. As a licensed Engineer, I am obligated by (California State Business and Professions Code, or whatever) to notify authorities having jurisdiction of items that, based on my engineering qualifications, I believe to present a structural hazard.

The deficiency observed was (Minnie’s Wardrobe fasteners appeared to be connected with frayed threads, or whatever). If the (connecting threads or whatever) fail, it is possible for (Minnie’s wardrobe to drop and cause severe mental injury to children surrounding her, or whatever).

I recommend that further structural investigation of (Minnie’s wardrobe or whatever) be undertaken to assure that structural failure of the (connecting threads or whatever), will not occur.
I would be pleased to further review this with you. Absent any further contact from you, I will consider that this issue has been addressed and my obligations have been met.

Thank you. (And tell Goofy he still owes me a beer.)

 

[allgoodnamestaken]

My name is Kazhyu Truubul

Wait until the reply from Sue U. Back, their lawyer.

 

[dicksewerrat]

You can add that you are not of a sound mind because taking a group of kids the Disneyland is proof of that. Have fun and keep the kids out of the water.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[HamburgerHelper]

Allgoodnamestaken,

Or Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

 

[zdas04]

I took an ethics class from the chief attorney of our state board last week. This situation (slightly different facts, but the same thing) was presented as a case study. The board's conclusion in that case is that notifying the hotel owner in a way that makes it clear you are not just a whining crank is adequate to satisfy your obligations. They want issues like this resolved at the lowest possible level. They would say that notifying the local hotel is adequate, and that the next escalation (that the P.E. is not required to do unless he was getting paid by the local hotel) would be to notify the chain (if it is a chain hotel), then the state engineer, then the board. In the case of a hotel guest noticing an issue with public safety ramifications, my board feels that a P.E. hotel guest has an obligation to notify the actual hotel, and that ends his obligation to the code. The existence of the letter could easily be used in court to change the status of a liability suit from negligent to grossly negligent which has more significant penalties.

Of course they added a bunch of weasel words basically saying that in the next set of similar facts they might reach another conclusion. It is really easy to hate lawyers.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Star for you David, good to have that bit of information and knowing that they agree with the general consensus here that sending a letter is good practice but it doesn't typically have to escalate beyond that. I've been too busy/lazy to follow up my letter. I think I'll have to give them a quick email/phone call to confirm they received my letter and ask if they have any plans to address it. From what you've wrote it doesn't sound like this is required so I might just walk away.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[BUGGAR]

I see that the State Board wants to be the last to know of problems that may be their jurisdiction?

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Of course they want it addressed at the lowest possible level. It's in their best interest in every possible way that they never hear about it.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[zdas04]

Yes, they didn't even waffle a bit. Their stated policy is to resolve issues at the lowest possible level. They even said that the old saw that "difficult cases make for bad law" was even more true in this case because the issues can be very technically complex and have many shades of grey. If the board has to publish a decision on a really marginal case then it can lock them into a position that they would prefer not to be in.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

Let's not ignore the cost question. A state board is a relatively small organization, compared to the all of the local jurisdictions within the state. If every action had to go through the state board, the board would need to be immense, take substantially longer to make decisions, hire a boatload of engineers, and quite possibly, increase the annual dues by 10-fold or more.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

faq731-376 forum1529

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Regarding IRstuff's post, the boards should either have the capabilities to do their job (provide enforcement and guidance for the rules and laws governing professional engineering) or don't exist at all. If you need to raise fees to provide the support your licensees and profession needs then so be it, but don't reduce the fee and then not be able to provide the services the fees are supposed to be for.

Not saying that is what they do, whenever I've contacted the state boards I'm licensed under they've been quite responsive and helpful. But I think this is ultimately another topic to discuss some other time. I'd be all for debating it if someone wants to start a new thread.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[zdas04]

I also didn't get the feeling that the Board (in my state) felt overworked. They often take a while to handle non-emergency stuff, but they can get on an ongoing crises very quickly.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Yeah, I believe it's as David postulated above regarding avoiding establishing "bad case law". However, I would also put forward that they want to avoid all liability. This, if it is happening, would seem very frustrating to me as the boards should be immune from liability for this very reason; to allow them to weigh in without worrying about getting caught up in the legal kerfuffle.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[IRstuff]

I'm not saying that the boards are overworked; I'm saying that if the boards set a precedent and allowed all local issues to be elevated to the state level, they would then get overwhelmed. The state board should be dealing with state-wide issues. To get down into the weeds requires expertise on every possible jurisdiction's codes and local ordinances, which seems counter productive, given that local jurisdictions already have that responsibility.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

faq731-376 forum1529

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Ah, I see what you're saying IRstuff. I misunderstood your post above.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com