Sealed drawings ownership 5

[cwald]

I have been working with Engineering drawing for the past 20 some years. I working with document control not engineering.. Anyways I was wondering if we hire an engineering firm for a project and they summit a sealed set of drawings who is required to keep this sealed drawing for record?

We have our own engineering drawing management system and this question comes up several times.

Is it an owner legel responsiblity to keep a record of the sealed drawings or is it the Engineering firms???

Clint

 

[NimeshEngr]

Usually this is part of the Laws and Rules of the State requirements. I believe in the State of Florida it is 7 years to maintain the record but as the engineer of record you are responsible for the life of that design or until the design gets modified.

 

[a2mfk]

fel3- sounds like you have given a deposition before, and it can get way worse than that over far less... attorneys

 

[fel3]

Yes, I have given depositions, but fortunately only two. More relevant, though, to my particular experience in this area is that in high school I was on the debate team, which is the normal breeding grounds for attorneys, including my old debate partner and still friend. Also, I have judged probably 200 rounds of high school debate over the years, including about a dozen local National Qualifier final rounds. Some of these high school kids are better than some courtroom attorneys I have witnessed from the jury box. BTW, my high school cranked out--and still cranks out--attorneys like a copy machine (>30 in my class of 535 graduates v. only 3 civil engineers and <10 engineers total; my wife's class the next year produced similar numbers, though only one civil engineer). I remain friends with several of these attorneys, for some unknown reason.

Of my two depositions, our calculations and drawings were not relevant to the first and only somewhat relevant to the second. Mostly, it was our other project records and it's a good thing we kept them. I won't go into details, but retained emails, telephone conversation records, etc. got us a win in the first case and greatly reduced damages in the second case because we were able to prove that the client was partly responsible for several errors that increased the cost of a construction project. The crux of both cases, interestingly enough, was the failure of the clients to provide some or all of the information that they had in hand and that they were specifically required to provide PER THE AGREEMENTS (e.g. project requirements, record drawings, past studies, etc).



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"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[ebaftj01]

I agree with fel3 and vmirat about keeping all pertinent documents, drawings, calculations, but i disagree with ztengguy about the client needing to look for another engineer if he does not produce the calculations. I would hold on to my calcs until absolutely needed, and that moment would be in court, when asked to compare with the expert witness' calcs they (the plaintiff hired) provide in court. I won't just hand in my calcs, but i'd rather think of them as my ace in the hole, especially if I am confident in my work. But going to court without any paper trail, no drawings, no calculations is like going to a gunfight without even bringing a knife, but hoping to duck for cover.
On a side note, I once had the owner's field rep who was the site safety guy asking me about sheeting design calculations, after i gave in my sheeting design, and I said to him that my design bears a PE seal, and i assume responsibility for it, and he is not a PE, so he is not even qualified to look over my work, not to mention the fact I want to protect my work. I told him if you don't feel it is safe, you can hire your own engineer, and have him do the calcs, because I work for the site contractor and not the GC or the owner.
This brings up a question, should you show calcs to anyone who demands them? I know NYCDEP (department of environmental protection in NYC) wants to see them for drywells etc, from a document review standpoint before approving plans, so i'm ok with that. But should you show your calcs other than in court when you have to?