Ship fire 4

[enginesrus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ils5y0PK5No&pp=ygUdaHVnZSBzaGlwIGZpcmUgMiBmaXJlbWVuIGRlYWQ=

I wonder what started this?

 

[wayne440]

3DDave - Well put. Now is not the time to cast doubt upon the dead.

 

[Murph 9000]

Another video from Sal Mercogliano discussing the firefighting challenges:

https://youtu.be/98fgZ0du2ic

 

[resqcapt19]

It does not appear that the Port of New York/ New Jersey has any dedicated fire stations. I wonder why? The Port of Long Beach, that is only slightly busier than this port, has two port fire stations, each with a 108' fireboats that can flow 41,000 GPM.

https://polb.com/port-info/news-and-press/mission-ready-fire-station-15-nears-completion-03-29-2021/

 

[spsalso]

"Now is not the time to cast doubt upon the dead."

Can doubt be cast upon the living?


spsalso

 

[Murph 9000]

It does not appear that the Port of New York/ New Jersey has any dedicated fire stations. I wonder why? The Port of Long Beach, that is only slightly busier than this port, has two port fire stations, each with a 108' fireboats that can flow 41,000 GPM.

I believe there has been a huge shift in transpacific cargo from the west coast to the east coast in recent years, due to the new larger locks on the Panama Canal. I suspect that PANYNJ may still be catching up on infrastructure to properly support the increased activity.

 

[spsalso]

So PANYNJ has put their infrastructure improvements ahead of fire safety?

It's hard to imagine how expensive those special hose adapters must be, if the purchase had to be put off for so long.


spsalso

 

[Murph 9000]

I'm not suggesting they put other infrastructure ahead of fire safety. I'm counting dedicated fire stations in the ports as being infrastructure, and saying that they may still be growing their infrastructure to match the new level of demand.

 

[spsalso]

But they haven't built any dedicated fire stations, as far as I can tell. The new canal was opened in 2016, and they've had quite a few years to do so. And they did not.

So, it appears their "catching up on infrastructure" has not included any fire safety improvements. Including the purchase of hose adapters.


spsalso

 

[3DDave]

Infrastructure always lags demand. Most every attempt to get ahead either drives demand based on the future promised availability or it ends up with dead projects and bankruptcy when the demand doesn't arrive.

I can see where a port authority might try to gain business by "If you build it ..." but that needs to be paid for and increased fees would send ships to other ports that aren't prepared.

It's really up to ship operators to make the demand and pay for the facilities. It's up to ship designers to provide adequate fire management for the cargo they carry.

I wish all the shore-side fire department had done was to ensure the fire was contained on the ship and let the ship owners deal with the insurance companies.

 

[TugboatEng]

That's what we do here on the west coast. Let the fire burn itself out. Provide structural cooling to the best of our ability. Our ability on the west coast is very limited, 3-5 tugs with poorly designed 1000 gpm fire pumps. The Long Beach fire boats don't go on outside calls.

 

[spsalso]

"It's really up to ship operators to make the demand and pay for the facilities."

That's a surprise. So there was apparently no demand and thus no facilities. And apparently fire protection at US ports is optional for port operators.

spsalso

 

[TugboatEng]

What is the risk to port operators? The ship is sitting in the water, right? Pumping water into the ship to fight the fire doesn't necessarily improve the situation. It's best to stay out of it as much as possible.

The refineries require wire ropes be hung from the offshore side of the ship so that tugs can pull it away from the terminal in the event of a fire.

 

[dik]

My understanding that is myth (from real firefighters) Petroleum products don't spontaneously combust.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[3DDave]

I've seen a couple of instances where grass clippings have spontaneously ignited, one burned down a garage. Hint - don't put a trashcan filled with grass clippings in the garage.

The rags part is the critical part in supporting both a sufficient area in contact with oxygen and preventing the related heat from escaping. Not all oily rags do so, just like not all grass clippings do.

I'm leaning to a defective electrical module as my 90% guess. I bet some of these cars got new batteries in them to get them off the lot and the old battery was killed by a failing module which continued to corrode. Add time and some more jostling and off it goes.


Off-topic oily rag combustion:

https://youtu.be/nJ9OLvu5o8g?t=44

https://youtu.be/9WCkxpphHBU?t=247

It does appear to mainly be so-called drying oils, such as linseed, so there's that.

 

[MintJulep]

Not all oils are petroleum.

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...ces/Safety-tip-sheets/OilyRagsSafetyTips.ashx

 

[dik]

corrected... thanks.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its a known fire hazard in hotels, working clothes and towels from the kitchen going on fire in the laundry after being left in the drier or dumped in a big carrier straight after drying.

I seem to remember once an oil be it petroleum or vegetable gets heated above a certain temp it will start to exothermically oxidise. Then when it hits flash temp the whole lot goes up.

And vegetable and animal fat is more prone to it than petroleum.

 

[resqcapt19]

My understanding that is myth (from real firefighters) Petroleum products don't spontaneously combust.

Correct, only plant based oils do that.

 

[TugboatEng]

And only plant based oils season cast iron pans. Something about alkyds and polymerization.

 

[3DDave]

No wonder recycling motor oil made the eggs taste bad.