Shop drawings/submittals and engineer's seals 1

[bnickeson]

We're currently in the construction phase of a project in Las Vegas, NV with Clark County being the supervising jurisdiction and we are the EOR. They have been the biggest nightmare of a jurisdiction that I've ever dealt with, but that's a topic for another thread. In Vegas, we are required to submit final approval shop drawings to the city for any delegated design (obviously) but even for things like concrete mixes as well.

We are running into an issue where the county is telling us that we are required to seal, with our S.E. stamp, the concrete mix submittal for the project before they will accept it and give us whatever permit is needed. Keep in mind, this is not our standard shop drawing approval stamp, this is our EOR's seal and signature that they want. As the EOR, we did not have any control or supervision of the concrete mix submittal, nor do we have the knowledge of the concrete chemistry. It seems to me that their request is in direct violation of just about every statute involved with a professional engineer's seal, and we have refused to seal it.

Are we correct here? Are they asking engineers to do something that is entirely against the law?

 

[jayrod12]

Will the concrete supplier not provide sealed mix designs? It happens all the time around here.

 

[bnickeson]

They may have a licensed engineer on staff, not sure. They're not a very large company from the looks of it. But the county is explicitly asking us for our seal which I thought was extremely odd.

 

[jayrod12]

I can't say I have experience with a situation like that. The AHJ usually just wants A engineer's seal. They don't particularly care who's as long as someone is taking responsibility.

 

[msquared48]

I would put the question to the Nevada State Board. The demand seems over the top to me too.

I have never had to use my professional seal on a shop drawing in over 35 years, only a shop stamp.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[KootK]

X2 for over the top. Maybe they'd go for a stamped letter confirming that the mix designs comply with the project specifications. Beaurocrats love letters.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[MotorCity]

I can't ever remember receiving a sealed mix design, must be a regional thing.

I never really considered it to be a delegated design item, but I see the argument as to why it could be. The EOR is relying on the expertise of a contracted (delegated) engineer to design a portion of the project. If it is to be treated as delegated design, it should be sealed by the engineer who created the mix design. But as with any delegated design item, the EOR typically does not place his/her seal on the delegated design documents. That's the whole point of delegated design, if the EOR could do it himself/herself they would. Most EOR's are probably not well versed in typical delegated design items such as precast, light gage, curtainwall, and yes, mix design. They rely on the expertise of hired guns. The seal on the delegated design documents provides the EOR with a comfort level knowing that it has been designed by an engineer who does that sort of thing everyday. However, the EOR does take responsibility for the entire project which includes delegated design items. The EOR's seal on the project documents implies that he/she is in responsible charge for all aspects of the project, delegated or not.

 

[msquared48]

Sounds to me like the aberrated power ploy of an out of control structural engineer wannabe micromanager.



Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[bnickeson]

Maybe they'd go for a stamped letter confirming that the mix designs comply with the project specifications. Beaurocrats love letters.

We actually had to do that with the wood truss shop drawings, despite the fact that the manufacturer had already provided the County with sealed drawings and calculations. The bureaucrats down there are a real piece of work. Never experienced anything like it.

 

[bnickeson]

Sounds to me like the aberrated power ploy of an out of control structural engineer wannabe micromanager.

You have no idea. That whole state has been a nightmare. Took nearly six months just to get a reciprocity license.

 

[JStephen]

I find this in the "Blue Book":
M-1. Do shop drawings have to be stamped by the principal design
professional and submitted to the building official for approval?
No. However, there are some instances where shop drawings could be
used as a part of the construction documents, therefore requiring a
professional’s stamp. For example, a truss or space frame dimensionally
shown on the construction document, specified by performance, must
be submitted to the building department bearing the stamp of a Nevada
licensee or registrant.
M-2. What component or supplemental designs are required to be
stamped or sealed by a design professional when submitted to the
building official for approval?
Components or supplemental designs such as prefabricated metal
building drawings, roof truss systems (complete systems) drawings,
post tension or prestress designs, alternates to the original submittal,
component or system substitutions which substantially change the
scope of work or code application and precast concrete building
components must be submitted to the building official for approval.

 

[cvg]

it's easy enough to prepare a cover letter saying that you reviewed the lab reports and the test results (which were completed by others) show that the mix is in conformance with the specs, that you accept it as being in conformance and stamp that. According to many boards, you are actually required to stamp letters. If the lab report was prepared by an engineer, that engineer must stamp the report.

6.  For the purposes of NRS 625.565, a professional engineer has “responsible charge of the work” and may sign, stamp or seal plans, specifications, plats or reports which were not prepared by the professional engineer:
(a) If the professional engineer personally supervises the work on the plans, specifications, plats or reports to the degree that he or she is satisfied that the work is completed in a proper and professional manner; or
(b) Where the plans, specifications, plats or reports are not prepared under his or her personal supervision, if the professional engineer or persons under his or her personal supervision review the plans, specifications, plats or reports and make tests, calculations or changes in the work as necessary for the professional engineer to determine that the work has been completed in a proper and professional manner.
7.  A licensee who signs, stamps or seals a document which was not prepared by him or her but for which the licensee had responsible charge of the work is subject to disciplinary proceedings pursuant to chapter 625 of NRS for any errors in that document as if it was prepared by the licensee. This subsection does not exempt any other licensee who prepared the document from disciplinary action for his or her errors in that document.

 

[hokie66]

This may be a kneejerk reaction to the Harmon Tower debacle. But if the bureaucrats think paper will substitute for competent builders and site inspection, they are wrong.

 

[azcats]

I'm simply chiming in to pile on Clark County (and one particular reviewer) being a giant pain to work with.

 

[Ingenuity]

This may be a kneejerk reaction to the Harmon Tower debacle.

I was thinking exactly the same as you.