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South Australia statewide electricity blackout. 10

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A couple of thoughts re: heavy oil, and by extension, coal.
There is a process to upgrade heavy oil into a lighter product by the addition of hydrogen. Can this process be used to upgrade heavy oil or carbon (coal) all the way to propane?
It looks good in theory but what are the practical issues?


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
I might be wrong but isn't Waross' suggestion known as SASOL as developed by the South Africans around 1950??
 
Sasol is CH4 to heavy hydrocarbons, ie gas to liquid. Coal to liquid hydrocarbons (CTL) is Syngas plus Fischer Tropsch process, developed by the Germans 90 years ago. Syngas is very similar (or identical) to the way town gas was made in the UK, lots of stinky sulphides and smelly tar as a byproduct.

In an ideal post oil/NG world (we are talking the far distant future here) we'd use CTL or a variant to make hydrocarbons to fuel the awkward applications, principally aircraft, and nukes+greeny preferred renewables for electricity (and hence road transport).



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Modern coal plants also emit sulfur, but that is cleaned up in the scrubber. So why is town gas thought of as more stinky? Can town gas not be scrubbed?

I think the process of breaking heavy oil to smaller hydrocarbons is called cracking. But what would be your hydrogen source? Maybe natural gas or steam?

Much of the sulfur reduction in the US has come from burning low sulfur coal from the west, and less from eastern and middle US coals.
It tends to cost less than additional scrubber equipment.

I have no idea what type of coal exists in Australia.

 
With all the talk of the cheap plentiful coal in the US, is this of the variety that is obtained via mountaintop and stream valley destruction mining?

And at what point do we start seriously considering conservation/efficiency as a means to addressing these problems. Given all of the negative externalities associated with energy production and consumption, shouldn't this be the first order of business?
 
Are you suggesting reducing consumption of goods as a way to decrease energy usage? Yes we know that works.

Just what method do you propose using to reduce consumption of goods?

 
Unfortunately the political rhetoric of late has concentrated on the idea of reviving the coal mining industry in the United States with most of the attention having been focused on those places where miners have lost their jobs, which are in the coal fields in the Eastern part of the country, mostly places like West Virginia and Kentucky. Note that these are where obtaining the coal often does result in the destruction of mountaintops and valley streams and rivers. And as noted, this is also coal with higher sulfur content. Even those industrial and financial experts who are supporters of fossil fuels agree that the move from the use of Eastern, higher-sulfur coal to Western lower-sulfur coal was inevitable from a financial point of view, with additional motivation due to the negative environmental impacts and consequences of mining in places like West Virginia and Kentucky. To suggest that there will be any meaningful revival of coal mining jobs in these Eastern coal fields is simply naive at best and downright political expediency at worst.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
as if that were the only issue:
"Lower mining costs, cheaper transportation costs, and favorable exchange rates (compared to the U.S. dollar) continue to provide an advantage to producers in other major coal-exporting countries such as Australia, Indonesia, Colombia, Russia, and South Africa."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Maybe the coal miners should become gas drillers to drill and frack the coal seams. But that might produce too much gas.

Which leads to another question, is there anything else in the ground that can be mined?

Gold, silver, copper.
 
Usually, states that have coal don't have other things. WV, in particular, being known for coal, does not have much in the way of precious metals. Conversely, Virginia has little or no coal, but did have gold, and was a major producer of gold until California's gold rush. Of course, trying to make a living mining gold in Fairfax county, VA, is probably a losing proposition nowadays, particularly given that it's mostly placer mining.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Looks like we're going to be able to experience the same issues as South Australia soon. They're now militating to kill Washington State's only nuke because........"we can replace it with solar which will cost less". Sheesh.

Keith Cress
kcress -
 
Well they are right. It does cost less. When it works. Yesterday, in the Australian summer, my off grid solar was working at 20%nominal, at one hour before solar noon.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
What ever happened to the repeal of the laws of physics?

Honestly we will need to see blackouts before anyone wakes up here.

Maybe they can use tidal power in Washington. That's been thrown around but never proven.

 
You'll probably have the opportunity to watch it here instead of doing it yourself - within a couple of years I think we'll see demand exceeding capacity in the UK as the older plant is retired because of environmental / pollution problems and the LCPD.
 
Do they (UK or SA) let their prices fluctuate or are they fixed?
 
SA price are fixed from time to time by the power companies and the government.

Regards
Ashtree
"Any water can be made potable if you filter it through enough money"
 
As I understand it, power generators in Australia bid to supply power in 5 minute blocks, and get paid averaged over 30 minutes.
 
And if you want to watch the prices and the energy fluxes in real time, is a great place to start.

There's also the historical data for download.

The final report says that the wind farms reduced supply rapidly as a result of transmission line failures, overloading the Heywood connector, which cut out, resulting in the collapse of the entire system. The Dear Leader of South Australia is adamant that his windmills aren't to blame. Strangely the traditional generators stayed on line right through to the blackout. I think the Dear Leader is going to pass a bill banning high winds so that he can meet his renewable energy target.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
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