Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nd-turbines-texas-power-outages-b1802596.html

 

[Fischstabchen]

FacEngPE,

Can you explain what you are talking about because the TRE oversees NERC compliance inside of the Texas Interconnect and all the orgs that I have worked for or did work for worked to be just as compliant as orgs in SPP and MISO? I would like to know if I am missing the boat but I am getting a feeling that everyone just thinks Texas does whatever. [tt][/tt]

https://www.texasre.org/standards

 

[dik]

It starts...

"A Texas woman has filed a proposed US$1 billion class-action lawsuit against electric company Griddy Energy that alleges the company engaged in unlawful price gouging during last week's statewide winter storm and power outages, according to a statement from the law firm.

Lisa Khoury, a resident of a Houston suburb, claims she was charged a total of US$9,546 by Griddy from Feb. 1 to Feb. 19, according to a copy of her bill filed with the lawsuit."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[itsmoked]

If it 's true I hope they ransack that company. This has happened numerous times.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I suspect the whole system has been legalised in such a manner that there is no liability for anyone involved.

I also suspect the woman will fail because of griddy charging the spot price rate. If they had added anything onto the spot price then they would have problems but if they just put through the market spot rate as per the contract with the consumer then they are in the clear.

To be honest none of the energy consumer billing company's will have any assets anyway so even if it does succeed then the company goes bankrupt and disappears.

 

[dik]

AH... That's a neat thing about litigation... it doesn't even have to be illegal... and it is decided by a jury, not a judge (if memory serves).

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

I think there is something in the price gouging laws that apply here. Its illegal in 36 states, including TX. The hardware store and gas station can't raise prices on plywood and gasoline during emergencies, such as hurricans. Why should power generators be allowed to? What's the difference between gas stations, power generators, natgas distributors and hardware stores in that respect?

TX Office of the Attorney General

In Houston, as millions suffered power and water outages, food shortages and subfreezing temperatures, another problem confronted families: price hikes.

Steep increases in the price of food, gas and fuel have been reported across Texas. And as millions of Texans lost power, exorbitant prices were being asked for hotel rooms with power, with some climbing to $1,000 a night.

It follows a pattern: Disaster creates a scarcity of basic necessities; retailers and providers respond by sharply raising the price tags on sought-after commodities. Then comes public outrage and claims of price gouging — a practice deemed illegal in 36 U.S. states, including Texas, in times of disaster.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opin...0210224-55bqk3ydqjc4lmzjragpjw4sne-story.html

I think there is something in the price gouging laws that apply here. Its illegal in 36 states, including TX. The hardware store and gas station can't raise prices on plywood and gasoline during emergencies, such as hurricans. Why should power generators be allowed to? What's the difference between gas stations, power generators, natgas distributors and hardware stores in that respect?

TX Office of the Attorney General

In Houston, as millions suffered power and water outages, food shortages and subfreezing temperatures, another problem confronted families: price hikes.

Steep increases in the price of food, gas and fuel have been reported across Texas. And as millions of Texans lost power, exorbitant prices were being asked for hotel rooms with power, with some climbing to $1,000 a night.

It follows a pattern: Disaster creates a scarcity of basic necessities; retailers and providers respond by sharply raising the price tags on sought-after commodities. Then comes public outrage and claims of price gouging — a practice deemed illegal in 36 U.S. states, including Texas, in times of disaster.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opin...0210224-55bqk3ydqjc4lmzjragpjw4sne-story.html

This is not the stock exchange, or bitcoin free markets. The equivalent situation here cannot be permitted, ie. "Buy Bitcoin, or freeze in the dark". It can't be "buy my mafia insurance policy, or I give you one to the head". During 9/11, they closed the stock market for days, so investors would not lose money from an anticipated crash. Obviously they can't intentionally turn off power, but they could have easily closed the free power market and simply held the Sunday night price for the entire week. What actually was responsible for increasing prices? Nothing but unbalanced supply-demand curves. Did it really cost the power gens more money during those days to produce electricity? Well maybe, if they were experiencing natgas price hikes, but I didnt hear anything about the price of uranium hitting the roof. Did somebody raise the price of wind? If they DID get natgas price hikes, then let's cap the gas market at Sunday night prices too!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I am a bit cynical. I reckon that some entity with no assets in the middle who can least afford lawyers will end up getting targeted and will be held responsible...

Doesn't matter what you hit them with they will just go bankrupt and walk away and the consumers will have to pay for the mess.

All the real capital involved will be protected away owned by other entity's. The only liable entity's will only have rented offices and some IT gear as assets as well as their client books.

 

[RedSnake]

From 2019 ERCOT and Texas RE Generator Weatherization Workshop.
14) Generator Owners and Operators conducting readiness drills on extreme weather preparation.

https://www.texasre.org/documents/r... generator weatherization workshop - 2019.pdf

Cant find the 2020 maybe it was not done due to Corona.
There seems to have been new rules in May 2020 too.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

And here is some rules for emergency and frequency response
But it's seems that when generator operatives does not comply there is case by case counterclaims from ERCOT.

I have of course not read all thousands of pages an papers so there might be other rules too.

Enforcment

https://www.texasre.org/enforcement

BAL-001-TRE-2 — Primary Frequency Response in the ERCOT Region

https://www.texasre.org/Documents/Standards/BAL-001-TRE-2_Clean_Combined.pdf

EOP-011-1 Emergency Operations.

https://www.nerc.com/_layouts/15/Pr...ergency Operations&Jurisdiction=United States

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

It really does not matter what the documents say now.
Winterization policies obviously were not undertaken as required by them. Why?
Policy was not enforced for one reason or another, or
adequate policies did not exist, or
ERCOT has no real power (pun intended), or
ERCOT has no enforcement power whatsoever.
Looks like some blunders will require fixing.

ERCOT is responsible for capping the electric power market and they acted too late.
They should have capped it Sunday night.
Why even have a market cap 100 X average price?
It is not Bitcoin we are talking about.

I think the ugly truth has finally come to light and nobody is going to admit it.
The free market does not always work as it should.
Free markets work "fairly" when supply and demand forces are not excessively unbalanced.
They hurt investors when supplies are great and hurts consumers when supplies are scarce.
Speculators and hedge funds sometimes get caught on the wrong side of swings, but they supposedly know the risks and have a choice to participate, or not. Nobody gets hurt when supply price meets demand price and both investors and consumers meet and both walk away happy with their transaction. When market forces make "happy ending" transactions impossible, something must happen to control supply, demand, or in extreme emergencies, price. At least when they reach deadly proportions. Free markets are not the answer to everything.

 

[RedSnake]

1503-44
Well I agree.

At least here it is to high a cost to pay for the the state and society when this things happens, so that's why there are laws and regulations to prevent it.
I mean one weeks power outage would cost Sweden 9.7 billion EUR in BPM loss, probable more.
So for a land and or a state there should be great incentives to prevent this kind of thing.

Well I guess the easies way for them to fix this if they do not want put harder demands and rules and the same counterclaim on there generator suppliers, is to make a deal for the power reserv with NERC.
To be used in this circumstances.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I suspect they have things set up so it doesn't cost the state anything or any of the business entity's.

There will be loop holes put in place which have been lobbied for years ago to ensure that the only people that will pay will be the little people at the very end of the wire or gas pipe.

 

[RedSnake]

I will put it like this, I hope you are wrong ;-)

But I can see that we that live in a climate where things get out of hand pretty quickly if we can't trust in things working as they should have more incensement to be long sited then people living closer to the ekvator.
As they say in the Karibiens "Island mentality" get what you need for the day and then use the rest of the day to do what you feel like.

If you're cynical, people would probably call me a pessimist, because all I see is problems.
But you can not change what you do not recognize or see, which is really the end goal if you want things to work.
And I think it's possible to solve all problems, so I'm not really a pessimist at all.
I stil want to have hope for something better.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[CWB1]

During 9/11, they closed the stock market for days, so investors would not lose money from an anticipated crash. Obviously they can't intentionally turn off power, but they could have easily closed the free power market and simply held the Sunday night price for the entire week. What actually was responsible for increasing prices? Nothing but unbalanced supply-demand curves.

During 9/11 the markets were closed bc Wall St was spitting distance from the epicenter of a terrorist attack causing major damage to infrastructure, a healthy portion of the area was evacuated for public safety. I don't watch much television much less the news, but last I knew the rate increases and most of the power outages was directly attributable to the EPA setting ridiculous minimum power rates for producers that violated emission limits to compensate for high demand. Some increased capacity and raised rates, others didn't and caused brownouts. Another govt fail, nothing to do with private business.

 

[Fischstabchen]

1503-44,

There were no winterization mandates. No one was required anything but some plants did it on their own initiative.

Caps are in place to prevent market manipulation after what Enron did in California. Texas has caps. A lot of other states do,too. The caps have to be high so that companies who build peaker generation can recover their investment. Peaker generation has very few runtime hours each year and needs high prices. As is right now, it is hard to get companies to build peaker generation with a cap at $9,000 MWH. The capacity issues inside of ERCOT are in part due to the caps not being higher.

Dik,

She was on a variable rate and was very likely told this. The flipside is that I pay a fixed rate and had the thermostat at 80 F on my spare house so the pipes wouldn't freeze during the blackouts. I was still paying $0.10 per kwh for electricity that was worth $9.00 per kwh on the market. It works both ways.

 

[1503-44]

CWB1
I dont think a little news once in awhile would hurt you. Anyway, sorry to be blunt, but I'll be blunt. Nothing you wrote there makes any sense to me. EPA is not involved. Even less than normal during the last four years. Chicago Mercantile is a bit farther than spitting distance from NYC. Even EU foreign exchanges in Frankfurt and London kicked in with emergency measures to support the USD. Proximity to ground zero had nothing to do with anything.

My understanding (I could be mistaken about this), is that emissions criteria was waived to allow every last kWh to be squeezed out.

Fish,
Some plants did winterization, many others DID NOT.

Trading Markets.
Wall Street sets CAPS EVERY DAY! Since 1988.
If they hit the markers, trade is suspended with 7%, 13% and 20% breakers.
WALL STREET'S CAPS ARE NOT +10,000%
$0.09 to $9.00 is TEN TNOUSAND PERCENT !!!

At the start of each day, the NYSE sets three circuit breaker levels at levels of 7% (Level 1), 13% (Level 2) and 20% (Level 3). These thresholds are the percentage drops in value that the S&P 500 Index would have to suffer in order for a trading halt to occur. Base price levels for which these thresholds will be applied are calculated daily based on the preceding trading day's closing value of the S&P 500. Depending on the point drop that happens and the time of day when it happens, different actions occur automatically: Level 1 and Level 2 declines result in a 15-minute trading halt unless they occur after 3:25pm, when no trading halts apply. A Level 3 decline results in trading being suspended for the remainder of the day.[2]

Circuit breakers are also in effect on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) and all subsidiary exchanges where the same thresholds that the NYSE has are applied to equity index futures trading. However, there is a CME specific price limit that prevents 5% increases and decreases in price during after hours trading.[3] Base prices for which the percentage thresholds are applied are derived from the weighted average price on the future during the preceding trading day's last thirty seconds of trading. Price limits for equity index and foreign exchange futures are posted on the CME website at the close of each trading session.[4]

You say no companies will build for $9.00/ kWh. Sorry, but that's just plain rubbish. They fall all over themselves salvating at $0.40/ kWh. Building only with thoughts of proffiting at 10,000 percent normal price is just nuts. If that is their intent, we don't need them or their power. Everyone will be off the grid in seconds.

Your electricity was worth what you were paying for it. 0.10/kWh, so says your contract. You are not involved in any way whatsoever with the free electric market. You opted out.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

But he didn't the cost will be passed on at a future date.... What ever happens only the consumer will be out of pocket.

 

[Fischstabchen]

1503-44,

It isn't just $9.00 kwh but amount of time that they actually run. Most of the time, peaker units are just sitting idle.

My electricity is part of the market the rate is adjusted to take volatility into account. My retailer lost out on the opportunity to sell into the market at $9,000 mwh to meet residential contracts of me and people like me. During the price spike, retailers who offered variable plans tried to get people to switch over to fixed contracts with someone else to avoid running up a huge bill. No one though offering fixed rates was accepting new customers during the spike which would either reduce the amount of power they sold into the market or if they had no generation, force them to buy electricity at market rates.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

your retailer doesn't produce power it only hedges it off the power market. Hopefully keeping enough in the bank to cover any spikes.

 

[dik]

CWB1: Don't feel bad...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik