Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nd-turbines-texas-power-outages-b1802596.html

 

[RedSnake]

If you crack that your only a couple of steps away from becoming a mechie.

Well when I was going to choose what to become in life, one om my planes was actually becoming a flight mechanic!
But my parents didn't want that, but not knowing much about what different occupations really meant I guess I was all over the place like vet, hairdresser, garden architect, florist.
It was my aunt's husband who persuaded me to go to a technical theoretical education.
And also choose electrical power engineering after 2 years, I was more into in the process of becoming a chemist.
It's fun to blow things up ;-) or not..
But he always said that it does not matter what they do with the energy production in the future.
Electrician will always be needed, so you will never be without a job.
All other industries go up and down but not electric power production/distribution and consumption.

I was actually going to suggest doing a mimicry on owl wings for turbine blades but I see that it seems like someone else has already started with it

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[dik]

Take my word for it... it's fun... even used a blasting cap for a mousetrap in my younger days...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[RedSnake]

I ones saved a mouse from a mouse trap, it was a plastic one looking like clothespin in the stable.
It was stuck with a paw in it and was climbing up some harness dragging the mousetrap with it.
The only thanks I got was it bit me in the finger, it did not go through the skin though.

I had mice as pets when I was little so I'm pretty used to catching them when they escaped without killing them

A mouse had escaped and gone under the floor, there was a hole where the water pipe from the element went down.
And it only came out at night but we he never catch it before slimming down the hole again.
So my sister and I took a piece of string and tied a piece of sausage on it, and then we waited, so when the mouse came up and tried to drag the sausage down under the floor, we pulled the sausage in the other direction until it was far enough away that one of us could clog the hole so we could catch it.

At work some mechanics made air guns with 10 mm pipes that they connected to the 7 bar system shooting M8 nuts to try and kill them !
Totally lethal for everybody except the mice..

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[byrdj]

This should become a Psychology Epiphany to what is essential for YOUR life and WHO do you want to provide it to you.

 

[davefitz]

You may recall that in 2015, the Aliso canyon underground gas reservoir leaked out due to failed outlet valve or its piping, and it could not be repaired until the reservoir was emptied. It shut down natural gas power plants in california for months . The same failure mode might cause the entire eastern half of the USA to lose natural gas ( heating and elect production) if the underground gas storage resrervoir in pennsylvania had the same type of valve leak. The Texas 4 day storm could be worse by a factor of 50 in terms of people and time period if such a gas reservoir failure occured in winter in pennsylvania. It is surprising how vulnerable our systems are and how dependent modern life is on the assumed availabliity of gas and electricity. There is more to the risks than just insulation on a pressure transmitter tubing.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[LittleInch]

Electricpete.

That scenario of frozen injection pumps sounds credible to me for a particular field - other fields may hav other ways of doing it.

The point to know is that the gas often requires this injection of "anti freeze" in conditions well above freezing depending on the pressure, temperature and water content of the gas coming out of the well.

Natural gas powered equipment is kind of frowned on in many places now as the gas is just vented to atmosphere.

The other complication is that the gas is often let down in pressure to work at 7 bar or so on the pumps and valves. Even if free water has been removed from this power gas, the lowering of the pressure drops the temperature of the gas and can drop out water. Normally this is not an issue, but when it gets super cold, it becomes one.

It's no different to everything else on this thread about winterisation and standby systems. They all cost money and is it worth it for the odd day in 500 when you need something really robust?

ERCOT clearly think it isn't and neither do the gas producers, but having seen prices rise so dramatically, maybe some people will gamble on it before the next big freeze storm....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[cranky108]

I doubt they will gamble on it, as they have not since the last event. Don't wish for too much.
Likely some regulation will be required, but we may not get that. Likely more finger pointing, and toung wagging. And even some fines, but don't expect much action.

Nothing wrong with understanding how steam or any other kind of turbines work, just as long as we electricals don't touch them. They get quite hot for a process that is intended to be without the loss of heat.

Fuel storage should be an issue that needs to be an issue at many utilities, as with the replacement of coal units, the storage of fuel is being forgotten.

 

[miningman]

If we're discussing fixing / preventing ice build up in gas , or compressed air lines, think Tanner Gas and their installation systems. THis is NOT rocket science

 

[dik]

We deal with worse conditions for several months during the winter season, and there are no issues with being able to accommodate it.

The problem clearly falls into the arms of the supplier. My definition for negligence is, "Negligence arises when one person owes to another a duty of care and breaches that duty, and reasonably foreseeable harm arises as a result of that breach." Their actions clearly fall into that category.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

Perhaps some gas suppliers could afford to winterize, if they look at their cost of lost sales when the gathering system is frozen, plus the possibility of selling it at a higher spot price (price gouging) during extreme winter events.

Speaking thereof, aren't there laws against that?

 

[Fischstabchen]

LittleInch,

Ercot didn't have anything to do with this mess other than trying to manage it. The PUC and the Railroad Commission has authority over the electrical system and the natural gas pipelines. ERCOT manages the electrical systems but doesn't have any real power to force anything.

 

[dik]

Through mismanagement, they created it. The people have no control over the circumstances and rely on those 'experts' to look after things.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Fischstabchen]

Dik,

ERCOT doesn't have authority. They put together programs to help promote best winterization practices but they can't mandate or enforce something like that. They are easy to blame because they run the grid but they don't have ultimate authority. If they were designing table top exercises and educating plants who were interested in winterizing on best practices, you can be pretty sure that the topic and FERC's 2011 report were brought to the attention of the PUC and the Railroad Commission. ERCOT released several warning concerning potential problems with cold weather over the last two years and last November released a warning that they expected this winter to be an unusually cold and could be very problematic.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Serving on the Railroad Commission is one of the biggest political prizes in the state. It's an elected position where 2nd rate politicians go to either try and move-up the ranks, or to just sit back and gain influence which can be 'cashed-in' when the time is right.

One of the ironies is that despite its name, the 'Railroad' Commission has had nothing to do with railroads for nearly 20 years.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[1503-44]

ERCOT has no power plants of their own. Power plant owners build whatever they want. Their clients have little say about that, if any. If the people need something different than what is built, law and regulations will obviously need to be enacted, but were not, or were inadequate. Current regulations require that utilities' winterization efforts be reported to PUC, but do not require that any winterization equipment be installed. The buck stops in the big pink granite building in Austin.

 

[RedSnake]

ERCOT doesn't have authority.

Well in that case the agreements between ERCOT and the power suppliers are poorly written.
If a power company would like to join Svenska Kraftnät which has balancing control here, they are required by law to provide for all there costumers.
And specific extra capacity on stand by is also bough this has a fixed price for just standing by and is paid at market price when used.
If a power supplier can not deliver according to the agreement to there costumer, SKN buys from someone else, and the power company that could not deliver has to pay for it.
With such agreements, there would be more incentive to maintain their facilities properly since they have to pay someone els to deliver the power for them when it doesn't work and also extra to SKN for their extra work.
When the rebought extra power is used it is also bought by spot price but after the last call of the day so it doesn't increases the price on the market.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[byrdj]

BUT . . .
wasn't the reason to de regulate was so that generation, transmittion, and distrubution are seperate.

so the "customer" can get the LOWEST price service possible.

If a generation enity had a relaible, (previuosly) well maintain generator, they are not viable to bid on the "fair weather" sales. Bid, being the process of daily informing the distrubution what your cost to provide power that DAY. Bid too high and the plant just sits (and rust)

while the masses got what they paid for, unfurtnately everybody suffers

 

[RedSnake]

I do not know exactly how the Texas Power distribution market is constructed.

Here SWE. we have three different actors.
Main grid owner (Svenska Kraftnät) Balancing organ.
Local grid owner (who you are connected to). (You pay a fixed cost and some for transmission)
Power supplier you buy from.
If your PS cant deliver to you, you will stil get your power, and you stil pay the same price, fixed or mixed or spot.
The spot price can increase if there is high demand.
But if there is shortage the balancing company buys or use the power reserv, the SP has to pay for it since he could not deliver, but it does not increase the market price much or your bill.

There are 151 power supplier you can buy from here.

Best regards A





“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[dik]

I disagree... Being in charge, they do... when I walk into a highrise I have a reasonable expectation that it won't come down on my ears... I don't know why it doesn't, but those responsible for it do. There's no way to whitewash this negligence.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[FacEngrPE]

Redsnake - one difference between what you are expecting (and what exists in the eastern and western interconnects in the US is that Texas, by an odd quirk of the federal constitutions is not subject to the federal law that invokes the reliability requirements on the grid operators, generators, transmission, and distribution companies. The first iteration of this Law followed the blackout of 1965

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965,

and was refined over the following years, and is still evolving now mostly as Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) rules.

The state of Texas could create it's own Law to require reliability, but has chosen not to. More importantly ERCOT is not permitted to impose any reliability rules on the grid operators, generators, transmission, and distribution companies. The Gas Suppliers are completely out of ERCOT's realm of authority.