Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[BobPE]

I am talking about telling the public you are an engineer. My advice would be to read up on what your state says EngJW. The states really do not concern themselves with various disiplines or fields, just engineering in general. I have not seen anyone go to jail, but I have seen fines as large as 7,500 dollars for those holding themselves out to be engineers when the state says you cannot. Some people got infractions for putting engineer on business cards and letter head, others for practicing engineering without a license. There are people out there that spend a lot of time looking for this type of thing, so beware.

There is the industrial exemption, but that only applies to being an engineer withing the company you work for, not outside and that applies to almost all the states.

Bob

 

[EddyC]

EngJW,

New Jersey sent a seasonal newsletter out last year that clearly stated that NO ONE can call themselves an engineer to ANY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC unless they are a PE. Other states have similar rules. This rule doesn't apply when you are at your office or plant. But when you go home and go out to a party, if you are not a PE, you can't tell people that you are an engineer. New York, however, is different than New Jersey and will allow you to call yourself an engineer if you are not a PE. Each state has its own rules in this matter. The real problem here is that people are finding out about these types of rules and about licensing late in their careers. Licensing has not been properly promoted in the USA.

 

[haggis]

BobPE

The question is whether a word or the use of a word should be restricted by licensing boards or lawmakers rather than context of use. I myself don’t use the word to describe what I do for a living but if I did tell someone at the I was an engineer at the town picnic, I am hardly holding myself out to the public or trying to mislead and I doubt that I would find myself in court. We would all have to choose our words very carefully even in casual conversation, if this word restriction continued in other areas.

For example, Dr. Les Robertson, who is indeed qualified to introduce himself as such, and being one of the world’s foremost structural engineers, is hardly required to elaborate in which field he has a PhD or to stress that he is not in fact a medical doctor for fear of misleading someone.

Judge...did Dr.Robertson profess to be a medical doctor or lead anyone to believe that he was such?

Procecutor...No. But he introduced himself as Dr.

Judge...You seem to have jumped to a conclusion. Case dismissed.

There is a vast difference in the way you put it forth as “holding themselves out to the public as being an engineers” which to me, could be construed as an implication that they are qualified to work in a discipline which requires licensure. The solicitation or performance of work that requires licensure, the false use of PE or any other letters that would put one forward as being licensed when in fact they were not, deserves severe penalties and on this point I agree with you 100%.

However, I disagree that the states should not concern themselves more in licensure by discipline although I would hope that there are not too many PE’s out there that would overstep their boundaries of expertise.

In closing, as a gentleman, I apologize for the manner in which I answered your first reply

 

[BobPE]

haggis:

I run into this alot...engineering requires licensure if you wish to practice it in public...it does nat matter what the disipline is....It would be a three ring circus if the states focused in on individual disiplines. In my opinion, engineering is engineering...and the states regulate engineering, nuclear to maritime, to mining to electrical to mechanical to civil...it is all engineering that can be offered to the public. In most all states, PE=Engineer and the term are one in the same. That is why it is so important to understand what the state that you are in says about the use of engineer if you choose to use it, licensed or not.

no need to apologize for letting us know your thoughts...the way I look at this is that we are all in this together as engineers and we are the only ones that should be planning our future. I am glad you took the time to read what I had to say...It is always nice to get in-depth here with other engineers....

Bob

 

[EngJW]

So if someone at a party asks what line of work I'm in, and since I am not a lawyer, teacher, accountant, car mechanic, or street sweeper, I say I'm an engineer, that's breaking the law?

If, however, the mayor is there and asks if I want to bid on a construction project, I would certainly have to say that a license is required to do that.

I would like to assume that if a company advertises for an engineer that I can legally apply for the job. If the ad says PE required, then of course I can't.

 

[BobPE]

EngJW:

If you say that you are an engineer to someone and they look up on the states licensure web site and you are not a PE, then they report it to the board that you said you were an engineer and they could not find your name among engineers in the state...Then the state comes to ask what was going on....

Now, just who would do something like that...probably a freak that you would not be cought dead speaking with at a party in the first place...but yes...there is the potential for you to be fined...

The employment question is a good example. Anyone can advertise for an engineer and if you satisfy their requirements you will get hired. Now, being that the firm hired you as an engineer and assuming you don't have a PE, the firm puts "engineer" on your business care. You hand that card out and another PE gets it. the PE looks you up to see you not listed in the states registry as an engineer, even though your card says you are. They cry to the state that you are pretending to be an engineer and that you are taking work away from them. The state steps in and calls you on your use of the term engineer...the rest is up to the boards....

It's all how you represent yourself and to whom. But definately know your states rules and laws.

Bob

 

[EddyC]

EngJW,

BobPE stated it quite accurately. The solution is for all prospective candidates to get licensed, which is what the originators of engineer licensure had in mind when the process was created. The licensure process was subverted via loopholes by companies/industries/individuals with selfish motives.

 

[ERE]

I have a PE in Pennsylvania. If I go to a party in Ohio where I am not licensed, am I still an engineer?

I think it's okay for people to be called an "engineer" if they do engineering work for their company. As long as they do not advertise to the public to perform engineering work for a fee they should not get into trouble.

Ed

 

[BJC]

IF anybody really has a question they need to take to a board meeting. In a couple of states I registerd in an owner doesn't need a PE stamp on drawings. Hospitals, schools, public buildings - yes, plywood mills, fish canneries, airplane factories -maby. The owner ( or the owners insurance company) may require a PE stamp.
An electrican with a supervisors license may make and stamp drawings if he is working for a contractor.
In a couple of states you can put electrical engineer on your business card and make drawings. IF the drawings are for an installation not required by state law to have a PE stamp your OK. I have read several cases that said an engineer could not "offer" to do work for the general public, but could do work otherwise. The details of it all I'm not sure of, I think it mean among other things he could not list hiself in the phone book as an engineer. he could get work by networking or referals.
If your an owner and want to build a small office building you can call a contract agency and get an "engineer" to do the plans. If the building is not required to have a PE by the state it's a go. I have seen this done by degreed non PEs, licensed electricans and "Designers". The plans get reviewed by a building department official. The "plans examiner" is usuall an electrican who checks everything per the NEC. NEC compliance doen't mean it's good design, just that it won't start a fire or kill someone. Thats good enough in lots of places, get in built and on the tax rolls.

 

[whyun]

Sad truth of the matter is, the fines imposed on those who falsely claim to be engineers are not severe enough. The money they make by posing as engineers is far greater than the fine, so if they are caught, they pay the fine and goes on posing again.

 

[ctopher]

After reading this thread, I'll never call a Locomotive Engineer or Aerospace Engineer that again! I'll just say "Hey You!".

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[IRstuff]

6704. Defines who may use engineer titles
In order to safeguard life, health, property, and public welfare, no person shall practice civil, electrical, or mechanical engineering unless appropriately registered or specifically exempted from registration under this chapter,

Unless you are in one of the 3 (and only 3) specified groups, you're not covered by the California PE act anyway.

TTFN

 

[BobPE]

IRstuff:

You are right, CA has a very weak PE law and the public pays dearly for it....There are other parts of the law that are even more vague and more frightning.

It is definately not a model typical of the remaining states...

Bob

 

[EngJW]

What are the groups that are exempted?

From what I am hearing, I will have to avoid states like NJ even if just passing through.

You could have a problem if you mention to anyone you have an engineering degree from xyz college, you are an engineer at xyz company, and you are a member of Society of xyz Engineers.

 

[BobPE]

EngJW:

I think you are missing the point. If YOU call yourself an engineer, YOU are responsible for that decision if your state has restriction on the use of that word. Having an engineering degree, being a member of an organization, or working for a company in an engineering position have nothing at all to do with the you use of the term engineer.

By all means, don't avoid New Jersey, they restrict the use of the term engineer and the state is far safer becuase of that!!!!!!

Bob

 

[EddyC]

EngJW,

I work in an adversarial industry. I get to meet many "engineers" in the course of my job. Many of these folks are using the engineering title as a means by which to fool people into agreeing to do things that they shouldn't be doing. This is exactly why there are licensure laws. I am sure that many of the folks with 4 year BS degrees are well meaning and fairly competent. But that is a philosophical statement. Society needs a uniform legal method of qualifying who is an engineer. The PE exam is that method. You can have a variety of applicants from differing educational and experiential backgrounds. The PE exam takes these varied applicants and gives them a common method of credential evaluation. The moment I meet an "engineer" for the first time, back at my office I check to see if they are listed on the state roster of professional engineers. If they are not, then I have no idea of their credentials and abilities until I work with them for a prolonged period of time. Do yourself a favor: Get Licensed.

 

[melone]

BobPE, can you please inform us how New Jersey is "far safer" than California? What specific quantifiable metrics are you using to base this claim? Just curious...

 

[BobPE]

malone....LOL

Bob

 

[kchayfie]

The european system looks interesting (from an outsiders perspective with no experience of how successfully it works). There doesn't appear to be any kind of restriction on the use of the term Engineer (or the french/german/spanish/etc equivalents) but once an engineer is chartered/registered/licenced (or however you want to label it) that person has the right to use the title "Ing.", in the same way as a medical person with all the relevent qualifications uses the title "Dr." I don't know frequently it is used though.

In terms of the legal position at a dinner party in NJ, is it OK to say "I work as an engineer (but the PE I work with signs off on everything I produce)" - I know we are getting into semantics now, but it bugs me to think the work I'm doing now isn't engineering but next week/month/year when I get my PE, it will be engineering even though the work hasn't changed.

 

[ctopher]

I think we just about beat this one to death. I think I'll go engineer something now ...

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716