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Too many jobs? 33

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Tunalover

Mechanical
Mar 28, 2002
1,179
Folks, idealist that I am I have moved from one job to the next in my career trying to find an employer who not only cares about designing and delivering the products at hand but also cares to envision and implement an improvement program that will improve design engineering performance OVER THE LONG RUN. I am a long-run (and short-run) thinker but haven't found like-minded people in engineering management no matter where I've worked. Part of the problem has been that whenever I landed in such a short-sighted environment I allowed my attitude to "go south" and have never been able to adequately "kiss up" to management and put on a happy face to prevent from being canned by layoff or firing. I simply found that "regular guy" managers are far and few between. The best boss I ever had was demoted by a new manager that was not also a "regular guy" (narcissist with capital "N"). Why is it that so many people who get into management are promoted there with personality traits that you and I do not value in friend and family relationships? I have had so many narcissist managers I lost count!

So I resigned at one employer after two years working for the worst boss (and one of the worst people I'd ever met) of my career; an alcoholic narcissist electrical engineer (EE) who had worked only there his long career. I can fill pages about the guy but won't.

So I accepted this new position with a good salary and benefits in January 2017 after fine interviews where the hiring managers told me what I wanted to hear. On my first day I inherited a product someone else worked on but had moved on. I found using the ASME Y14.5 fixed fastener positional tolerance fit formula that the two highest-dollar custom manufactured parts (a circuit card assembly and a die-cast enclosure) in the design were toleranced so that they would not always fit when produced within the the drawing tolerances. I had been doing this same calculation for more than 30 years to make my custom parts dimensionally robust. I told the project lead the holes in the printed circuit board were much too small. He scoffed and said "we've been using that hole size for M3 screws for 20 years and have never had a fit problem!". I tried to explain to him that the company had been lucky to have diligent suppliers that maintained their tooling well in order to hit dimensions "dead nuts" all those years. I showed him the calculations and showed him the formula in the ASME standard but he dismissed me. I was not allowed to change anything. He was an EE. Even my functional manager was an EE! Can you imagine a place where all the MCAD designers and mechanical engineers are managed by an EE? My functional manager wouldn't listen either. When I took the job I believed I would be empowered to make and implement mechanical design decisions but it turned out that was not the case. The EEs controlled everything including the mechanical designs. It was micromanagement run amok. They believed they knew all there was to know about the mechanical design of electronic products.

Then, also on my first day, I was invited to a meeting where I was to meet another mechanical engineer (ME) who was going to provide his estimate to complete (ETC) to finish a design. As the senior ME in the room I asked him for his opinion on how long it was going to take to complete the design and before he could open his mouth the project manager (the same EE as mentioned before) blurted out "five hours!". I was blown away! This EE felt he knew better than the ME as to how long it would take to finish the design! The ME went on to explain he needed 12 hours to complete the job and provided details as to why. The project lead listened to his presentation and the meeting was basically over but the ME was held to a five hour time-to-complete (which he did by taking risky shortcuts no doubt).

That was just my first day. It "took the wind out of my sails" and there was nothing in the coming months that helped me get that wind back. I went along for months finding the company was poorly managed in general and giving no credibility or respect to either of those managers (they did nothing to earn either) and they could tell. Eventually, no matter how well I did something it was heavily criticized. And my spirit continued to sink...I couldn't find a new job in time and I was fired by HR for my "poor attitude" and "poor performance".

Now that was just one mismanaged workplace of many I endured in my career and, frankly, I always enjoyed the freedom of moving along any time I wished after a year or two. But there were a few places that WERE fairly well managed but I stupidly moved along for better pay, benefits, location or whatever. But it gradually became harder and harder to find new work (contract or direct) due to my high mobility. But now I have more than 15 jobs on my resume. And when employers (and recruiters) see:
A. that I haven't worked since April 2017,
B. that I only worked at my last employer for four months, and
C. that I've had so many jobs,
in a week or two they drop me like a hot potato if they called at all. Of course no one explains why they pass me up. In the testy US business climate that would be too risky for most managers and recruiters I suppose. But I know why they do. Even when I provide them with sample work I get passed up (I doubt if anyone looks at it). Although I have vowed to become more tolerant of my next (and hopefully last) employer, it doesn't matter.

What to do now? We are in danger of losing our home since we can't pay the mortgage. I need good advice here. More urgently, I need a job ASAP!




ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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I have a friend who went through maybe 15 jobs in 30 years, always looking for someplace where he could make a lot of money. Many of these jobs were with high-tech start-ups (all in the San Jose/Silicon Valley area) hoping that he'd fall into another HP or Apple, but it never happened. He finally gave up and decided that there must be an easier way to get rich, so he met a very nice lady who had already been part of a very successful startup and who cashed-out before the dot-com bubble burst, got married and has lived happily ever since (we plan on visiting them at their really nice home in Hawaii when my wife and I fly there in September).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
The problem with electronic packaging is that you are _always_ working for a sparky, and most of them don't begin to understand mechanical tolerance stackups. They mostly work with resistors and such, which are made on highly automated machinery, and typically have _actual_ parameter distributions that are orders of magnitudes smaller than the _guaranteed_ parameter distributions encoded on the parts. So the word 'stackup' means nothing to them at all, because they _never_ have to worry about it.

They _might_ accept statistical tolerancing.

I used to work for a tiny electronics company that used MS standards for screws and such, but the buyers were told to not worry much about tolerances or packaging or any of the MS standard requirements.
... and the assemblers were told, in person, that if they got a screw with no threads on it, they were to just discard it and get another one.

Perhaps your now former employer had an unrecorded standard policy like, "If the board doesn't fit, get another one that does, or drill the holes out a little", or something like that.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
 
<sympathetic "ummm hmmmm">
Similar experiences, but my issue has always been frustration with lack of ethics, morals, teamwork, professionalism, and plain human decency with a string of <snip ~100 derogatory adjectives> managers and co-workers. Stupid technical decisions can usually be addressed. The adage is you can't change other people you must change yourself. I struggle with that but am getting better. I've come to accept I will always grind my teeth with stupid, unethical people doing stupid, unethical things. Silly me for being a naive idealist and expecting the best out of people. The free psychological therapy I get from a relative helped me realize that.

Advice to you from my experience:
[ul]
[li]Reformat the resume into a functional format, de-emphasize chronological format.[/li]
[li]Developed narratives to address the hard questions. Not deception or "spin," but actual reasons why a job didn't work out based on unacceptable practices by other parties. This will sometimes result in doors slamming shut in your face. I believe a higher power is steering you away from those doors because they have bad mojo behind them.[/li]
[li]Accept that all the HR managers have no interest in YOU, they are only protecting themselves (1st), and then the company management which keeps them employed. Accept that the HR managers "play golf together" and swap stories about employees and make hiring deals with each other. This is how a worker will get blackballed in a region. When that happens, it is time to move to another geographical location.[/li]
[li]Ditto for recruiters. Candidates with difficult issues get treated like lepers.[/li]
[li]Accept that one will never get "rich" being an engineer. A comfortable life...perhaps. Fabulously wealthy, no. Quit chasing that pipe dream.[/li]
[li]I got laid off just prior to the 9-11 event and saw all jobs disappear. I had a dire need for employment to support my family. I started freelancing to put food on the table. I taught myself how to do it effectively and discovered that there is work under every bush. Engineers are trained problem solvers and there are problems that need solving everywhere. Get out there and start looking for short-term freelance work to pay the bills. This activity will also build a network and reputation.[/li]
[li]You may consider re-direction. Take your analytical problem solving skills and pursue another career.[/li]
[li]Take some personality tests and get some therapy to figure out what makes you tick and why being who you are presents challenges to your resume.[/li]
[/ul]

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
 
BTW for the many readers who aren't sure what the term "electronics packaging" means, Google the term and there's a pretty good description now in Wikipedia. Wikipedia will appear be at or near the top of your results.

ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
I tried a functional resume, once. I got an interview with HR, wherein an HR monkey interviewed me in detail, in fairly hostile fashion, and produced the worst, most unflattering chronological resume possible for me, which was sent on to whatever internal system they have. ... and I never heard another word from them. At least they didn't publish that monstrosity.

Subsequently, a friend who worked as a Certified Professional Resume Writer tuned up what I had, and it worked much better.

Now I use a chron resume, loosely derived from the pro's version, that for each job leads with a reason for leaving, expressed in a positive, honest, and sometimes humorous way, even for the dreadful jobs. ... especially for the dreadful jobs. The last guy who hired me based on that resume said it was the funniest resume he had ever read. I kept it as brief as possible, but because some of my best stuff occurred decades ago, it runs to seven-ish pages, and includes several captioned photos of products of which I am particularly proud.

It's important that the top half of the first page grabs the reader by the throat, so they will want to know more, and that each succeeding page manages to sustain that interest, or morbid curiosity, or whatever drives them. ... so work, work, work on the resume until it is perfect, and then develop it some more. I have on occasion actually measured the response rate to a given resume by keeping track of where each version was sent and what happened, and made random small changes, watching the response rate and adjusting the adjustments systematically, not unlike the way some control systems use dither.

My resumes mostly end with:
MTH/wk ( for author / typist "Who Knows?"
filename (MikeHalloran|monthandyear|codeforlongorshort.doc)
... just so I can keep track of them; there's a bunch.
It's sometimes helpful to re-examine the really old ones, to find out what I _thought_ I was doing,
and to find ways to remove the subtle inadvertent negativity that I only notice in retrospect.






Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
 
MikeHalloran said:
It's sometimes helpful to re-examine the really old ones, to find out what I _thought_ I was doing,
and to find ways to remove the subtle inadvertent negativity that I only notice in retrospect.
I get a laugh when I read copies of old cover-letters I put on my resumes, long ago. Still sitting on my computer and too funny to delete them, now!

If considering a job applicant, I would have a lot of trouble dealing with a "functional" resume rather than a chronological one.

Tunalover,
It is probably time to step out from behind your resume and present yourself as directly as possible to potential employers. You have already made it clear that many aspects of your resume and "form-field" answers are difficult to explain and certainly don't fit in the box that allows 100 characters or less. You will need to use the personal strategy and win people over in person. The people you need to meet may be found at engineering organizations like ASME chapters, alumni associations, chamber of commerce, or the state PE licensing board, to name a few. After 15 jobs, you must have made some friends (you couldn't have ticked them ALL off, could you? [wink] )

I have helped a number of people recently with job searches, and every one of them has found the next job not with "indeed.com" but with a chance meeting or through their network of friends.

Edit: and, have you the means to consider starting your own business?
 
Oh yeah that good ole "we've been doing it like that for so many years and had no problems", I have sure been there done that one.
And the main reason I have never liked working for any company. Nice to not have to anymore.
Simple logic is so lacking in all industries nowadays. So what age was your manager?
 
Be honest to yourself and to your potential new employer. Are you really looking for a long term job this time? Then up to you to convince them that this time's for real. The way you format your resume just means 10 seconds more of the HR manager's time to figure out the situation.

I must admit I have not read the rest of the story. I don't think your future employer would be interested in why you quit 15 jobs. They just want to know whether you will quit the 16th. If any doubt they will not want to invest in you. Why should they?

But as you said "I always enjoyed the freedom of moving along any time I wished", I don't believe you _are_ looking for a long term job. In that case, why not look for a temporary job? It will be much more fair from both sides, there will be no suspicion from the employer's side and no hard feelings.

Or start your own business, exactly

TunaLover said:
Folks, idealist that I am........

.........I always enjoyed the freedom of moving along any time I wished after a year or two. But there were a few places that WERE fairly well managed but I stupidly moved along for better pay, benefits, location or whatever.

I wouldn't call that idealist, man. I think it's pretty cynical. Be very careful how you come across when you apply for a job. A hundredth of this and you already sound too cynical to call back. Sorry about that. Hope it helps.
 
Based on your OP, it seems like you've rarely found a reason to stay, either everyone is a jerk, or the company is crappy, or there's greener pastures across the street; it smacks of commitment-phobia.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Try consulting. Your experience with many companies becomes a marketable strength and you probably have a great set of corporate contacts in the field.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
 
Folks this might shed some light. Here's an email I sent to an HR Manager today. I just sent it minutes ago so I don't know if the honesty will pay off! The first boss (narcissist alcoholic) I first mention was removed from his management role on my last day there (I accepted the new position at a different company three days before management found me a new boss). That day I worked 8am-11:30pm to prepare my hand-off documentation package and clean everything up I was working on. Maybe only those MEs on Eng-Tips who have worked in electronic product development might appreciate what I said. The "interference story" I tell is from an earlier post so sorry to repeat that!

"Hi XXXX,
You may learn that I’m pretty intense and that I am a mechanical engineer (ME) to the core LOL!

Yes, it was a challenge. So after 18 mos under an abusive boss, I was relieved to start anew. The bad boss I had was an EE who believed that anything he didn’t already know about mechanical design was not worth knowing (no kidding!).

But when I started at XXXXX I was also reporting to EEs (my functional manager AND project lead were both EEs). I suppose I should have sensed a problem when the manager of mechanical engineering and MCAD drafting was an EE. How can an EE judge people in an entirely different engineering discipline?

The long and short of it is that my managers would not take my advice. Whenever I recommended something that differed from what they already knew it was denied. Each time I said to myself that, maybe because I was the new guy that’s to be expected and I just had to sell my ideas. So with each recommendation, I produced hard data and facts showing it was an improvement. That changed nothing.

For example, on my first day, I inherited an XXXX design including a circuit card assembly (CCA) and die-cast aluminum enclosure. I always check designs for interferences. This one had an interference. The printed wiring board (PWB) mounting holes were too small for the M3 self-tapping screws given the tolerances assigned to the holes in both parts. I used the fixed-fastener positional tolerance formula from ASME Y14.5M-1994 Dimensioning and Tolerancing (I’ve been using the formula since 1985 when the same formula came from ANSI Y14.5M-1982). I showed them the formula from the standard and showed them my calculation. I even wrote it up in MS Word. They would not allow me to change anything saying “we’ve been using that PWB mounting hole size for M3 screws for decades. We’re not going to change it”. The truth is that it was not the design that prevented interferences all those years it was the diligence of their PWB and die-cast suppliers to maintain their tooling so they hit the dimensions “dead on” each time. The fact remained that there were two high-dollar, high-volume custom parts in the design that would not fit by design; it was possible that thousands of parts in high-volume orders made per the two drawings could pass dimensional inspection (meet the drawing requirements) yet when they were assembled in manufacturing would interfere. This was just on my first day. The formulas is exceedingly simple and anyone competent in geometric dimensioning and tolerancing (GD&T) should use it.

So as time went on, it became obvious that the XXXXXX MEs and MCAD designers simply did as they were told by management (EEs) and long ago stopped pushing back against faulty legacy mechanical design practices accepted as law by the EEs. Or, worse yet, they weren’t aware of which legacy practices were faulty because they only copied what was done on earlier designs and never questioned them. Many didn’t seem to care about these things and, frankly, were barely acting as more than layout designers and draftsmen. I’ve found that most MEs in the electronics business just do as their told, don’t push back and contentedly collect their paychecks year after year. Others push back. That’s what I do when I see something that can be done better or when I see something that’s wrong.

So I admit my attitude “went south” because I had been in the same situation many times before in electronics businesses run solely by EEs where the MEs were not empowered to make decisions and/or their recommendations were not accepted simply because management would not take the necessary time to understand the mechanical details. Of course, most EEs don’t know thermal analysis and fluid mechanics. Of course, most EEs don’t know GD&T. Of course, most EEs don’t know vibration and shock analysis. But most EEs, in my experience, think that electronics packaging is a lot easier and simpler than it is and they don’t believe there’s anything to learn from the MEs. I’ve met very few EEs, management or otherwise, who believed they could learn anything from an ME. That’s why management needs to have MEs! There’s more to electronic product development than just fitting CCAs into boxes! My boss at XXXXX was an EE that, frankly, was not qualified to judge MEs or act as a “second set of eyes” on designs being done under his watch. IMO a good manager and engineer needs to be objective and self-reflective. And he needs to know the discipline he is managing.

Well, I’m off my soapbox now. I hope this helps."


ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
epoisses you cherry-picked my post to paint the picture that I am cynical. Maybe I am! I'll have you know that rarely a day has passed in my career where I didn't invest hours of my own time in becoming more knowledgeable, more skilled and more versatile. Also on my own dollar I've bought industry standards, textbook, handbooks, manuals, website subscriptions,...running into the $thousands. I have a huge personal investment in becoming the best at what I do. Now, have you ever worked somewhere where no one in management was qualified to judge you? Try working at a place like that sometime!


ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
IRStuff
"Based on your OP, it seems like you've rarely found a reason to stay, either everyone is a jerk, or the company is crappy, or there's greener pastures across the street; it smacks of commitment-phobia."

Funny, I don't recall calling anyone a jerk or saying that any company was crappy. Wow you really spun that posting!!



ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
Tunalover,
You did in fact write in your OP that this person was "the worst boss (and one of the worst people I'd ever met)" and "the company was poorly managed in general". I don't see how IRStuff "spun that posting" with his remarks, or why you are getting so defensive in general.
 
I was trying desperately to condense your postings contents into something that wouldn't take half a screen to describe. You've only mentioned "good" companies in passing, everything else is "worst" "narcissist with capital "N," etc. If they aren't jerks, why bother mentioning this? If they don't accept your "The formulas is exceedingly simple and anyone competent in geometric dimensioning and tolerancing (GD&T) should use it," and they aren't jerks, then what are they?

If you don't like the word "jerk," substitute your own negative descriptor word in its place. "but haven't found like-minded people in engineering management no matter where I've worked;" sounds like a crappy company to me, but, again, feel free to substitute an adjective of your own choosing.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
I would not have sent that e-mail to HR. I would look for something fresh to do. Maybe in another part of the country.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
 
SandCounter,
Perhaps you would not have. I figure if an HR person reads the honest-to-God truth and does not believe it then it is probably a company I would not care to work for. The electronics business suffers from a weak representation of the mechanical engineering profession. The profession is pushed aside and dismissed as trivial by people who make the assumption that it's just circuit boards in boxes with a few screws to hold them in. It is much more than that.


ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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