Train Derailment 3

[dik]

In Washington state, derailment killed 3 people and some still seriously injured. Part of the problem it seems is the design of the rail. From the BBC.

"A US passenger train that derailed, killing three people, was travelling at 80mph (130km/h) on a curve with a speed limit of 30mph, data from the train's rear engine indicates."

The rail was supposed to be a high speed rail and it seems really silly to have a 30mph curve on it.

link:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42408624

Dik

 

[waross]

Is 30+ years of successful operation long enough to declare a system mature and dependable?
SkyTrain
Mass transportation system
SkyTrain is the metropolitan rail system of Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. SkyTrain has 79.6 km of track and uses fully automated trains on grade-separated tracks running on underground ... Wikipedia
Average speed: 45 km/h
Began operation: December 11, 1985
Daily ridership: 454,600 (December 2016)
Annual ridership: 137.4 million (2016)
Top speed: 80 km/h (50 mph) (Expo and Millennium Lines); 80 km/h (50 mph) (Canada Line)
Did you know: SkyTrain is the ninth-busiest North American rapid transit system by annual ridership (137,380,000)

Much of the system uses Linear Induction Motors with regeneration.
As the trains pull into the stations, it is easy to hear when the LIM regeneration cuts off and the mechanical brakes apply.
The distance to stop from the point that regeneration ends: About 3 to 5 feet.
Full automation is available for anyone who wants to use it.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[IRstuff]

"Full automation is available for anyone who wants to use it."

As always, it's merely a matter of time and money.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[3DDave]

So a train running on it's dedicated tracks without possibility of traffic conflict is safer? You don't say. I bet the Disney World Monorail also has a pretty good safety record as well.

It looks like Sky Train also pulls about $0.5 Billion from outside taxes to support it on top of fares and advertising sales. This means they cost Canada about $5 per rider. That might be a good deal, but it's not a universal solution. And it's not entirely without fatalities.

https://www.straight.com/life/458271/skytrain-deaths-examined

And yes, many, but not all Skytrain deaths are probably suicide, but they still look at the money before deciding on measures to mitigate it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

FROM OUT OF LEFT ,ER I MEAN RIGHT FIELD: It appears that some on the far-Right would like you to believe that it was members of a left-leaning anti-fascism group who sabotaged the AMTRAK train in Washington:

http://www.newsweek.com/antifa-fals...ailment-right-wing-conspiracy-peddlers-751893

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Sparweb]

John, remember that the very act of linking your posts to lunatic news actually encourages it - even if your goal is to laugh at it.
The number click-throughs that Newsweek will get from the link on a high traffic website like Eng-Tips will only serve to validate that muck-raking. Your ridicule is not a factor in their web stats or their advertising revenue.

STF

 

[bacon4life]

"They spent $180.7M to put that shortcut into service to save, (I believe), 15 minutes. Worth it?"

A bit more context: On the old path Amtrak shared the rails with freight trains, so there were often highly unpredictable delays. Being on time 7 out of 8 times and two hours late the 8th averages out to 15 minutes of delay. When I was regularly commuting along this route, the train's reputation of highly variable arrival times discouraged me from going by train.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I'm a big believer in the concept that sunlight is an effective disinfectant. Besides, the article from 'Newsweek' is critical of and goes to great length to undermine the premise that it was some sort of plot by a Left=leaning faction of society, as was being promoted by these far-Right wackos.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Spartan5]

John, remember that the very act of linking your posts to lunatic news actually encourages it - even if your goal is to laugh at it.
The number click-throughs that Newsweek will get from the link on a high traffic website like Eng-Tips will only serve to validate that muck-raking. Your ridicule is not a factor in their web stats or their advertising revenue.

What is it I'm missing about Newsweek's reporting that was supposed to make it so awful? It's not as if John linked to the actual conspiracy drivel.

 

[DanEE]

quote: On the old path Amtrak shared the rails with freight trains, so there were often highly unpredictable delays.

ditto... I recently took the Via-Rail Canadian from Toronto across Canada to Vancouver. From what I saw and experienced, the amount of east bound rail freight originating from Vancouver and I would imagine the northwestern ports in general, being the closest to the Asian Pacific, is staggering, with significant delays to passenger rail.

Passenger rail traffic is last in priority on shared freight rails, due to track ownership, ecomonics, and that the freight trains are far too long in length to fit on just about all sidings. After getting into Vancouver proper, it was a 2 1/2 hour delay to get past the freight assembly yards (and east bound freight) to the passenger station just a few miles ahead.

 

[VEBill]

DanEE, "...the amount of east bound rail freight....is staggering..."

On average, the number of east-bound and west-bound freight rail cars should be very nearly identical. Otherwise the rail cars would tend to pile up at one end.

You would have passed more east-bound traffic since you were heading west. !!

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I bet the Disney World Monorail also has a pretty good safety record as well.

Not as good as one would think...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/05/u.s.disney.monorail/

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[waross]

I saw a report many years ago, before Vietnam, that The Port of Vancouver handled over half of the tonnage on the entire West Coast, from Mexico to Alaska.
The percentage may have slipped somewhat, but it still carries a lot of tonnage and a lot of it is bound for eastern markets.
And as far as west bound traffic, there is a lot of grain heading west.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[3DDave]

Pretty good <> Perfect. Didn't derail.

 

[dik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv8PEG0hcbQ&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

Dik

 

[bimr]

First point, the locomotive engineer failed to slow to the 40 mph speed limit at Mounts Road. The train probably would not have derailed had he done so. The second error was the failure to slow to 30 mph speed limit for the curve approximately 1/4 mile after Mounts Road. The speed limits are shown in the brochure and with signage on the railroad route.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/20790BB4-7A4E-44AF-8791-F3A77186A764/0/PtDefiance_March2010.pdf

"Upgrades tracks and improves existing connection to BNSF Railway main line so trains can travel up to 40 mph from Nisqually to Mounts Road and 79 mph from Mounts Road to Bridgeport Way."

The locomotive engineer announced an over-speed condition approximately 6 seconds (or 650 feet) before the crash.

The locomotive engineer should engage legal counsel as he will probably face manslaughter charges.

 

[racookpe1978]

In the many dozens of mainstream news reports on this, and the many interviews on radio programs about the overspeed, it is noteworthy to see that the local "politicians" and "officials" are really straining to NOT "blame the operator" - although I see nothing but "operator error" in running too fast.

ALL these "officials" are so very willing to mention "not installing the speed regulators" .... Odd attitude.

 

[waross]

It used to be a challenge commuting by car into Vancouver on the Lougheed Highway. There were a couple of level crossings in Burnaby.
Inbound freight trains would have to wait for clearance to enter the freight yards.
There was a limit to the amount of time a train could sit stationery blocking a level crossing. If the time was exceeded, the train crew was supposed to break the train and clear the crossing.
Rather than break the train, the train would proceed at about 2 MPH and block the crossings for a very long time.
Now the track through Burnaby alongside the Highway is built on very soft ground. You could see the rails subside as each loaded truck passed by.
Came the day that the grain cars of a slow moving freight train started to rock and a harmonic frequency must have been found. The rocking progressed until a large number of grain cars were laying on the ground beside the tracks.
After that, the scheduling was revised so that trains could waste time further away from the city without inconveniencing commuters.
Too slow may also be a problem.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Sparweb]

...to see that the local "politicians" and "officials" are really straining to NOT "blame the operator" ... I see nothing but "operator error" in running too fast...

I'm watching this trend too.
Remind yourself who was at fault during the many Toyota "stuck accelerator" accidents a decade ago.
The company paid the fine. All the people who explained why the car probably wasn't at fault were ignored.
Anybody demonstrating how the subject vehicle engines couldn't overpower the brakes were called company shils, and ignored.
I'm wondering if this is going to be a similar case. My local media has already imagined a link between this derailment and a local city transit train accident in Calgary.
Nobody was hurt, but a locomotive had to be scrapped. It left the tracks, clearly due to operator error, any yet still the city transit system had to install magnetic brakes to stop trains overrunning the end of the tracks.

STF

 

[3DDave]

Does this mean they can stop putting up guard rails on mountain roads and high bridges? It would be nice to have an unobstructed view.

The fines were mostly for not reporting incidents to the feds. It's tougher to manage safety if the maker is hiding safety related information.

The crash and burn Toyota had another driver report the same problem days before to the dealership. He also was unable to stop the car with the brakes while in gear. I have no idea how a cop would not know to use neutral, but that should not be required by having a car configured to create the problem.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...al-crash-had-earlier-2009dec04-htmlstory.html

It's also the case that drivers will tend not to initially put full force effort into the brakes at the outset, so the brakes rapidly heat, glaze, and fade, unlike the behavior of those 'proving' some contention about how the brakes, under different usage, could work. Flight-sim pilots were often able to successfully pilot a plane under the circumstances that brought a DC-10 down in Chicago, but only after they were fully informed as to the exact defect and given a chance to plan a response, time and information the original crew did not have.

 

[waross]

I have wondered why the Toyota driver could not just turn the ignition off. In every car that I have ever driven it was possible to turn off the ignition at any time even if it was not possible to turn the key further to lock the steering or to remove the key.
Were we seeing a Darwin Award competition?

Talking about Flight-sim attempts. I understand that Boeing set up a simulation of the Gimli Glider in their flight simulator and the first three attempts by Boeing test pilots ended in simulated crashes.



Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter