Unhappy Client 6

[BubbaJ]

I recently received an email from an "unhappy" client.

Said "unhappy" client (U.C.) was commenting on a recent set of preliminary drawings which we presented to U.C. at a recent meeting and discussed many of the issues mention ed in the email. Apparently, I did a very poor job of "educating my client."

There were comments such as "I have spoken to several contractors that have been in the business for years because this goes against everything we have ever experienced and they also find the footings not acceptable at all." There is concern that the footings will "roll-over" in the ground. And the list goes on. He is also demanding that an evaluation of my proposed foundation system be reviewed by another PE.

The proposed system is a 30" wide trench on Geopiers. I have used this type of system on other projects with great success and I know it has been used widely. I am confident in my proposed design.

I am looking for opinions on an appropriate response to the email from U.C. This is a delicate situation as the Architect on the project is my business partner. How shall I handle this to at least keep their relationship intact and remain professional? I can think of a lot of response that will do neither.

My fear is not that the review will be negative, but that the owner will not let this go. I feel I am fighting a losing battle here. Please help!

 

[csd72]

Sounds like a good solution, are you taking along a brochure so that you can show them what a geopier is?

 

[Ashereng]

Can you post a picture of a geopier?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[BubbaJ]

The meeting went well. We did not get fired! He said that was never his intention. Anyway, we did a lot of educating. It seemed to be enough for now. We are going to be much more proactive with this client.

You can see a video on the geopier system at

http://www.geopier.com

It's pretty amazing and has many uses.

Thanks again to all who posted.

 

[dik]

What's the difference between geopier and the old Franki pile, with the exception of the concrete? Is this a patented application? if so, what is patented?

Dik

 

[BubbaJ]

A geopier is also commonly called a rammed aggregate pier. Most generally a 30"dia hole is cored to a predetermined depth, aggregate is then added in lifts that will be approximately 12" thick after compaction, as the lifts are compacted lateral pressure is exerted on the adjacent soil and its densification results in significant allowable soil pressure increases. In my area, typical native ASP is 1500-2500 psf. That will ususally be increase to 4000-6000 psf with the geopier system. Because the soil is densified, a standard spread footing or trench is used as opposed to a grade beam that spans between as with piles.

The system can really come in handy where native bearing pressures are very low or where someone has done something nasty like place uncompacted fill on your site. It can be a great cost savings over the process of over-excavation and recompaction.

Hope this helps, you should really go to the website if you have a chance.

 

[jmw]

It is a human trait for people not to say what their real problem is.
Clients especially. When they have a problem they may frame it as an objection or even as an attack on your credibility. They may say quite provocative things simply to get a response (engineers are logical, most everyone else is emotional).

The type of objections shown here are what could be called "Information Seeking Objections"

You were right first time with your comment that you needed to do some educating.

"I have spoken to several contractors that have been in the business for years because this goes against everything we have ever experienced and they also find the footings not acceptable at all."

What does he really mean?
He is saying "Hey, this is new to me and I can't get anything useful from these other contractors. Show me you know what you are doing and why I should go along with you. I don't want to take risks and I don't want to be a guinea-pig."

He wants comfort. The more uncomfortable he is then the stronger he will show this and he will be quite aggressive. So when he says

He is also demanding that an evaluation of my proposed foundation system be reviewed by another PE.

he is really saying "show me why I should trust you." He isn't saying you are incompetent, he is saying he doesn't have any experience of this approach, can't find anyone else who does and just wants you to justify the design.

The rest of what he says all goes to the same thing:
There is concern that the footings will "roll-over" in the ground.
These are all information seeking objections. He wants to be sure that this is the right way to go and that he will be safe doing it.

Now, costs.
There are lot's of sayings that all run counter to what you are offering: "You get what you pay for." "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

Most people expect that better quality costs more money. This then leads to the corollary that if it costs less it isn't as good. Fundamentally he is prompted by this to be worried that what you are doing is cheaper because it is less effective. Maybe corners are being cut. Funnily enough if this system cost more you'd probably have fewer problems getting it accepted unquestioned.

The moral is that if ever a client doesn't trust you and doesn't feel comfortable doing business with you the first you will hear is when the contract goes to some other company. After that it is post-mortem time.

When a client comes to you this way you must not respond as if he were actually attacking your integrity, skill or knowledge. It is just that he needs "educating" and the more aggressive the approach the more critical the need for comfort.
Now the more deeply uncomfortable he is then the more strongly he will word the objection. You may find that if you respond to the objection, as stated, things can get quite hot so use a technique of softening. This is something taught to people doing public presentations. When someone makes an aggressive statement you listen, then restate it in softer terms and then answer your restatement.
If someone calls you a Liar you stand up and say "Mr. X doesn't believe me. I can see why that might be so let me explain it to you."

Any time anyone presents a situation to you in this way you have an opportunity to profit simply because they are presenting you with an opportunity to respond and explain.
In this case you establish yourself as a modern "leading edge" company because you know something that these old-fashioned companies don't.
If he believes you he has to believe that these other companies are out of touch and will cost him money. Money is always a winner. Note that if it is cheaper than the conventional way of doing things he can pay for more studies and still come out ahead doing it your way than doing it the conventional way.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[dik]

BubbaJ... a Franki pile is installed in a similar fashion but uses concrete instead. It, too, increases load capacity by laterally expanding and consolidating poor soils. I've been to their website (thanks) and I was wondering what the distinction is and if the overall method is patented.

Dik

 

[BubbaJ]

dik,

I didn't realize that a Franki pile was basically the same thing. I did see on one of Geopiers projects they did use recycled concrete. I can't remember why off hand, but, yes, it did the same thing. Typically Geopier uses aggregate. Sorry I don't know if they system is patented. You could probably call your regional Geopier rep and I am sure he would be happy to tell you.

 

[BubbaJ]

jmw,

Thank you for your response. What you said was exactly true. He did not understand and in this case, due to the special function of the project, money was not an issue. I would agree he thought that cheaper could not be better.

While we did not "attack" U.C. we did strongly state that we take our business very seriously, if we screw up, people can die.

We did manage to remain calm, however, I did feel my face getting hot a few times, I am sure it was getting red. It is hard to sit and listen to someone make skewed comments about your work and not blurt out "that's BS!" But we did and our approach worked.

 

[Ashereng]

Thanks for the link BubbaJ.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Ron]

dik...not that many of us still around who remember Franki piles!

 

[dik]

Ron: They still work and have their place and the patent has expired...

Dik

 

[jmw]

BubbaJ,
you've given us a button and I've sewn a vest on it but I think you have some interesting times ahead of you. In some respects I envy you but I am sure you are going to come close to wishing you'd never heard of this client.

This sounds to me like a guy who has a recipe for success. He has a way of doing things that get him results. He is going to give you some very hard times and he will never apologise or even concede he has a need to apologise. He may or may not be knowledgeable about construction, you don't say, but he appears to have a method that means he doesn't need to be.

He will always have several bids in front of him. He will compare them for price. Any big variances will raise his suspicions. He then looks for technical differences and he then pits one constructor's knowledge against another's.
He challenges you as strongly as he can.

I would suggest that you were probably surprised that he would be so aggressive and maybe you hadn't considered that your technical judgement would be challenged nor that the solution you propose would be questioned. This isn't a criticism nor is it a bad thing and in this case you might think that if you had anticipated this response and prepared a pre-emptive presentation that this "slickness" might have been counter-productive with this client.
We all of us at some time or other find that what we accept needs to be explained and sometimes in very simple easy to understand terms.I know I often get caught out because what seems simple and basic to me meets with blank looks and sometimes takes forever to be understood.

I suspect that each and every meeting will follow the same pattern to some degree or other until the job is over and maybe even after. If you survive you may find the only recognition you get is the next contract.

Of course, you can be offended and upset by everything the client says and does or you can try and plan how you will manage it.

Every time he calls you a liar, you have to step back and think about what he says and why he says it and how you will respond. I think you have to recognise that this is simply his method. He does it because it is a sure way to discover the quality of the people he is dealing with and whether or not he can trust their judgement.

You may well find that you are going to be very much on your mettle and you may actually enjoy the experience. I can say that it is a real good feeling when you can meet with this sort of person and not win, but succeed.

I suspect that your client is far from unhappy. I bet he is enjoying every minute of it. You should too.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[dik]

JMW... my life is too short to put up with this on an ongoing basis... I'd be sending him a bill for each meeting and wasted effort... He has to be educated that time and aggrivation is costly...

Dik

 

[csd72]

jmw,

You industrial guys must have more time to spare than us structurals.

In structural engineering any politics will burn out your fees very quickly.

 

[Slowzuki]

Very interesting, I had a bit of trouble with the authority using a similar system only it was 4-5 feet of compacted aggregate in trenches below a continuous footing.

They required another engineer review the design. He didn't want to assume any liability so my continuous footing became a grade beam capable of spaning 12 ft unsupported based on the loadings. The steel and concrete were cheaper than fighting with the authority and delaying the project.