Use of Seals on drawings 13

[PrecastDroopy]

I applied for a NY seal and was given temporary permission to practice but no seal. During this short 3 month span I did some design work for my employer. After this work was completed a letter from the NY board revoked my seal until I had more documentation of my experience. I came to find out several of my referances did not follow the instructions and were thus tossed out. My employer now wants me to seal the drawings with a MI seal and send them to NY. The owner is o.k. with this. Does this violate any laws, ethics, or other professional creed? Does this violate NY law? Thanks

 

[JAE]

I doubt that NY will accept a Michigan seal for permitting purposes. It doesn't matter if the owner sees no problem with it; the governing authority in NY will probably reject the submission.

In fact, they may see it as a non-licensed person practicing engineering in NY without a license. Could create some problems for you. The fact that they gave you a temporary permit/license should help in that you didn't do anything unethical.

I would call the NY engineering board for some advice as to how to proceed. Sounds like you CAN get comity ...just need the proper references to push it through the process.

 

[JStephen]

I'd look up the parts of the laws or rule dealing with that temporary seal, first. If you use the temporary licensing, do you use your out-of-state seal with it?

It sounds like your question comes down to: If I'm not currently licensed, can I now seal work that I did when I was formerly licensed? As a general rule, I would expect the answer is no- because you shouldn't post-date the seal to some past perior OR be sealing stuff currently with no license.

I, too, would suggest contacting the state engineering board. See, for example, if you can immediately get a renewal of the temporary license?

 

[bjb]

What did your references do that NY didn't like? IS it possible to get them to fill out your experience forms properly and resubmit? I was originally licensed in PA and then later applied for my NY license, and had no problems, other than the outrageous fee NY charges.

 

[PEinc]

JAE gives good advice. However, check the licensing laws in NY state. I believe they say that, if a corporation provides engineering services in NY, the company must be a Professional Services Corporation (which has a strict definition). Most engineering firms, and I would guess precast manufacturers, do not qualify as Professional Services Corporations. Be careful. I am a three person (all owners) engineering corporation. One owner is not a professional engineer. Therefore, NY would not issue my firm a Certificate of Authorization to provide engineering services in NY. I was told that I would have to practice as a sole proprietor in NY, using my own name, instead of my corporate name, on all documents and submissions.

 

[PrecastDroopy]

Thank you all for your replies. I am licensed in PA, MI, and TX. The job this was for is done and was a emergency dam repair for RGE thought the Federal Goverment. The FRC will not pay the owner until seals on drawings are provided so it is a big deal. The only think that happened in the referances was that one did not provide a seal, and the other never mailed it in. I will look into the buisness type and make sure we qualify. Thanks.

 

[JAE]

One other thought, based on your last post here, is that if the work is on a project that is a Federal project, managed by the Feds, and on Fed property, then the state of NY has no jurisdiction and your Michigan seal would/should work fine as long as the owner (the Fed agency you are working with) approves it. For these types of projects, there is usually no submittal for permit to the local city/county etc. as the project is technically not in their state or city (i.e Federal land is not state land).

 

[PEinc]

JAE, nice answer. I've had the same experience with Federal jobs.

 

[PrecastDroopy]

This job is actually a private job for a hydro-electric power station owned by a private corporations. The Federal Regulatory Commission is overseeing all work, pay, and contract issues. As far as we know the State of New York and there officials are not even allowed on site for safty inspections. Thanks for the tip, I had forgotten about that. That makes sense though I am also doing a job in the Marshall Islands and any state seal will do for that one too.

Thanks,

 

[bimr]

Does this violate any laws, ethics, or other professional creed? Does this violate NY law?

Of course it does violate the laws of NY. You are not licensed in NY. You may get the project approved by whomever, but you are committing a felony by practicing engineering without a license. There are no exemptions for federal projects. In most other states, this is only a misdemeanor crime.

The person accepting your MI PE license does not have the authority to permit you to practice engineering in NY. That is up to the State of NY and is a separate matter. Sure your project has been approved, but you are breaking the law. It's the same as speeding down the street when no cop is present. However, unlike the speeder, you are leaving evidence - your MI PE license.

If someone gets mad at you for whatever, they can report you to the State of NY. You should follow up and get the NY P.E.

Here are relevant passages of NY laws:

"Any use of the title "Professional Engineer" or provision of professional engineering services within New York State requires licensure, except in certain "exempt" settings. These settings are detailed in Section 7208 of the Education Law."

"§7202. Practice of engineering and use of title "professional engineer". Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title "professional engineer"."

http://www.op.nysed.gov/article145.htm#7208

1. In New York State, who can practice professional engineering?
Section 7202 of the New York State Education Law states that, "Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title 'professional engineer'...." A "person licensed" is an individual that has qualified by education, experience and examination and has been issued a New York State professional engineering license by the State Education Department.

"11. What are the consequences of someone engaging in unlicensed or unauthorized practice?
The laws of the State are clear in regard to unauthorized practice. Section 6512.1 of the Education Law makes it a class E felony for anyone not authorized to practice who practices or offers to practice or holds himself out as being able to practice professional engineering. Section 6509 defines professional misconduct as, among other things, permitting, aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to perform activities requiring a license; and, section 6512.2 makes it a class E felony for anyone, including a public official, to knowingly aid or abet three or more unlicensed persons practice a profession requiring a license."

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

This is a very interesting thread.

Perhaps speak to a lawyer before doing anything more. NY state will probably say they have jurisdiction and the feds probably don't care. You will probably end up in court if you seal with MI seal. I wish it was more cut and dry.

To my knowledge, Canada also has this same black hole with regards to engineering done on Federal projects and Industry Canada related works. Federal employees have exemption though.

VOD

 

[jike]

I would be very careful! If I recall correctly, I recently read about an engineer from one state who sealed a report and wrote underneath that he had applied for his license in another state. He was fine $10k.

 

[jjeng2]

NY has some more stringent requirements than other states. An NCEES record is not enough. It took me about 8 months to get a NY licence because I had to submit additional materials and they were very slow in reviewing everything. I did get a temporary licence rather easily though. I cant see why they would revoke that for a problem with your permanent licence app.

 

[DRC1]

Actually, you may be Okay. If you are stamping only the precast, and the precast is manufactured completely in Michigan, then a Michigan or New York stamp may be acceptable. I believe that interstate commerce laws allow systems that are fabricated in one state for shipping to other states and constructed to a recognized code can be stamped with a stamp from the state of manufacture or use. I have run into this with trench boxes and I don't see why the precast would be different. However, I am not a laywer, nor do I play one on TV, so check with a real one to be sure.

 

[JStephen]

DRC1, you raise an interesting point. Logic and good common sense tell me that if I sit here in my office in Texas and design away, then I can't possibly be practicing engineering in New York. And the engineering rules tend to be very vague about this, in pinning down "where" the practice actually takes place. However, the universal practice in reality is that if you design a New York building, you are practicing engineering in New York, regardless of whether you are ever physically there. When it comes to a PART of a building, it might or might not be different. If the element in question is designed by New York building codes, and the local building officials require a PE seal on it, I'm betting that it has to be a NY seal. Manufactured items like valves and pumps don't normally require an in-state PE seal, but then again, they don't normally require a PE seal at all.

Another issue that is unfortunately also very vague is what you ought to do to correct problems like that. Suppose I design a NY building, with no NY seal, and the building is built before the problem is uncovered. How is the situation to be rectified? Typically, the engineering rules just don't address the situation at all. You can't get the engineering seal there if you've already been practicing without a license. A currently registered NY PE can't step in and seal everything because it wasn't done under his/her supervision (although in reality, some form of this option would be persued).

 

[BigH]

Doesn't this all lead one to opine that there should be a national licensing board. Yes, CA and Alaska have some special problems they like to cover (seismic and permafrost); such could be handled separately - with a bit of effort and flexibility. In a way, in my view, the state-istic position a bit restrictive on interstate commerce - and engineering is a commerce. I like the idea of the UK's Chartered Engineer designation. - so, for an engineer to live in Delaware and, being so close to PA, MD, NJ, NY - how much money and effort goes into practicing engineering?

 

[Lutfi]

Most states that grant a temporary license, they do it for one project and one project only. They also stipulate that you need to apply for license on the heels of the temporary one.

I would call NY board and check with them. A phone call may save you lots of unnecessary troubles.

Regards,


Lutfi

http://www.cdeco.com

 

[bridgebuster]

PEinc:

I don't understand why NY wouldn't give you a certificate of authorization. In NY, engineering firms can no longer incorporate but this has been in effect, I would guess, for at least 30 years. To be an incorporated engineering firm, a company would need to buy a grandfathered license. However, the corporate license isn't a substitute for an individual PE. Otherwise, a firm registers as LLC or LLP. I know of firms in which some of the officers/partners are not PE's.

 

[dig1]

Call the NY board. My experience is that they are very helpful. But you need to describe your problem in detail to make sure you get to the right person.

FYI, it has been about 70 years that incs are no longer allowed to be formed in NY for engineering. Also, for an LLC (PLLC) formed in NY, all members must be licensed.

 

[PEinc]

bridgebuster,

The following is from a letter I received from the State Education Department of the State of New York.

"The law requires that this Certificate of Authorization may only be issued to business entities that are already authorized pursuant to other laws of the State to provide professional engineering services. These business entities are: (1), Domestic or foreign professional services corporations formed pursuant to articles 15 and 15-A of the State Business Corporation Law; (2), Domestic and foreign professional service limited liability companies formed pursuant to the State Limited Liability Company law; (3), partnerships, limited liability partnerships, ans new York registered foreign limited liability partnerships formed pursuant to the State partnership Law. (4) joint enterprises specified in subdivision four of section seventy-two hundred nine of the State Education Law; and, (5) general business corporations authorized to provide professional engineering services pursuant to subdivision six of section seventy-two hundred nine of the State Education Law.

Any other type of business entity is not authorized to provide professional engineering services and may not obtain a certificate of authorization."

I've spoken to the NY Division of Professional Licensing Services. They told (and wrote) me that my corporation was not eligible for a certificate of authorization. My S-Corp has three owners, one of whom is not a professional engineer and one of who is a registered NYS engineer. Please tell me more about the firms you know that have certificates but all officers/partners are not P.E.'s.