Value of a company's CAD title block 18

[LarryEF]

If this is an improper posting, please let me know. I'm new to this site, and I do not want to violate your policies.

I am a mechanical engineer and I represent a designer who copied and modified his previous employer's AutoCAD title block to use at his new company. I would like to get members' opinions as to a dollar value of the damages to the employer. The employer claims over $2 million. No drawings were taken, only the title block, and it was modified.

Thank you. Again, if this is out of line, I apologize.

I hope to contribute to this site in the future.

 

[KENAT]

I only studied a little law at uni but I suspect taking the electronic document may count as theft as others say but unless they have some really weird or wonderful format or he forgot to remove a logo that was copyright etc then I don't really see the copyright case.

Doesn't mean there isn't one though as the law can seem weird and wonderful at times.

That said if you are in the US then I think you owe it to your client to familiarize yourself with:

ASME Y14.1-1995 Decimal Inch Drawing Sheet Size and Format

If the format broadly complies with this document then I don't see anyway it can be a true copyright issue. Other countries/ISO/metric probably have equivalents.

The only way I can see $2m is if they can prove that they lost/stand to lose that much business, perhaps to confusion of drawings as another poster said.

I'm getting worried now, I based sections of my current employers DRM on one from a previous employer, am I going to get sued?

 

[LarryEF]

Mike,

You are right. In this case, when the issue came up the title blocks were immediately replaced. (It was a contract draftsman, not the defendant who modified the title block.) The plaintiff is claiming it took him thousands of man-hours to develop the title block, and that his title block design (which includes only standard data)results in a 10% savings on everything he manufactures. These claims are made by an engineer. Several other ridiculous claims are included.

Again, there isn't any allegation of theft of actual drawings or part designs; only the title block is at issue.

The real problem is that in civil suits there is no such thing as reasonable demands. Totally outlandish demands are taken as seriously as reasonable demands, and if the person making these demands (often a "professional" engineer)can lie convincingly he may well prevail.

This may not be the proper venue to express this kind of opinion, other than in some cases this problem is aggravated by unscrupulous and unethical members of our profession, and I think this is a concern to all of us.

Larry

 

[sbozy25]

I would like to see them prove that he "stole" the drawing. Since he was an engineer he constantly had access to the drawings so there would be no way for them to "log" a specific time that he had one out and took it. For all they know he could have just remembered what it looked like and re-produced a similar image. I swear to god that if this company wins the lawsuit, I am walking to my lawyer and generating some suits of my own!

 

[LarryEF]

Kenat,

I wouldn't worry. The real issue is that the defendant (little guy) has a better design than the plaintiff (big guy) and the title block issue is just a means to make him spend money defending himself and hopefully put him out of business.

Larry

 

[LarryEF]

Sbozy25,

Sorry if I got you upset, although it's sometimes hard not to be. My report is due shortly, but this thing will go on for months. If you are interested, I'll let you know how it ends.

Thanks,

Larry

 

[SylvestreW]

Theft? Sure. 2Million damages? Not so sure.

But now that you mention it, a cool idea would be to use micro-text of the company name as 'lines' in your title block. It'll show up on electronic files and very good printers so that's maybe worth something. (TM) (R) (C) (patent pending)

 

[Heckler]

I can see the companies entire image costing $2M with all the marketing and business development costs it takes to put their image on the forefront.

If the designer removed that companies digital property without permission he is a thief.

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
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(In reference to David Beckham) "He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right." -- George Best

 

[Ataloss]

I'm curious how the previous employer came to find out that the designer took their title block and used it to create one for his new employer. Is this part of a larger lawsuit where the guy took a lot of confidential drawings/intellectual property to his new job or started his own company designing very similar components to the ones his old employer designed and the previous employer is going after him for that?

It just seems odd that a company would waste so much resources going after the guy for this.

 

[LarryEF]

Ataloss,

See my reply to Kenat above. The title block isn't the real issue. The defendant came up with a better design for the actual tool and the plaintiff doesn't want the competition. If I could disclose all of the morbid details the situation would make more sense.

Thanks,
Larry

 

[LarryEF]

SylvestreW,

That's a good idea, but now none of us can use it. Maybe a licensing fee? LOL

Larry

 

[MikeHalloran]

I think copyright law works in reverse, too.

I.e., if you _don't_ put "copyright <year> <holder_name>" or "(C) <year> holder_name" on the "expression" _somewhere_, then anyone is free to copy it without restriction.

That would leave the defendant free and clear, _if_ he had regenerated the title block by, say, measuring a printed copy and building a clone via artwork or a CAD program.

;--

In this case, it appears that the defendant or his agent acquired and modified a computer file, and the action is based on the laws that apply to theft, not copyright law.

I'm conjecturing (as a non- lawyer) that one might be able to build a defense using copyright law, i.e. asserting that the defendant _could_have_ produced the clone by means that are perfectly legal under copyright law ... and offering to compensate the plaintiff for any media that were involved.

At which point, if I were the judge, I'd go after the plaintiff for abuse of process. But I'm not the judge.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[drawoh]

LarryEF,

I think the plaintiff should explain in court how he spent thousands of hours designing his title block.

A 10% savings on everything he manufactures is a challenge too. A really big performance improvement usually indicates that they were pretty crummy when they started off.

Could the title block have macros embedded in it? Quite a few years ago, I created some AutoCAD titleblocks and wrote some AutoLISP programs to manipulate them. I cannot claim I improved productivity 10%. I wrote copyright notices on my software. You cannot use it without company permission.

JHG

 

[cbrn]

Hi,
LarryEF, we're all speaking about "defendants" and "plaintiffs", but did the company actually sue the designer or did it "only" menace a lawsuit?

In the second case, I wouldn't even bother with a stupidity like the company's claim, and just wait for them to take any action (if they dare to...), as far as it seems they have been idiot enough to miss the only point where - perhaps - there could effectively be a claim: the "theft", or call it "copy" or "subtraction" if you prefer, of an electronic document, which is implicitly the property of the company (regardless if there is a copyright note or not, and regardless if the designer had constant access to it or not). At least, this is what would apply in Italy - in other countries, I don't know.

Regards

 

[LarryEF]

DrawOH,

You're right. You would think the plaintiff's engineer would have thought about having to defend his claims under oath as you suggest. Evidently some people, even intelligent people, make claims like this causually and without thinking ahead.

On the other hand, I've seen cases where the evidence supporting one party was totally overwelming and indisputable, but since the judge didn't understand the technical issues, he just said what-the-hell and split the difference rather than make the effort. King Solomon's approach isn't always right.

Larry

 

[KENAT]

If it's of help I just spent some time creating a new format for a 'non drawing' CAD file. I also sit with the guy that created our templates based closely on ASME Y14.1-1995 "Decimal Inch Drawing Sheet Size and Format" and I help with their maintenance.

So if you want an estimate of how many hours it may take to create templates I could give some info.

I will say this, if it took him thousands of man hours just to create the title block then his business will fail because he's so slow/incompetant/inefficient, not because someone took his title block.

A good CAD title block/drawing format which helps makes sure all relevant info is there and that auto fills from CAD properties certainly can save time but I find it hard to believe it amounts to 10% on the actual product. At a push maybe 10% per drawing but no way on the actual product.

Did he literally just copy the 2D layout or were there linked file properties etc that auto fill the format?

 

[LarryEF]

Cbrn,

It's way past the menance stage. I heard that legal expenses are well over $1 million so far, and we are months from a final trial date. Unfortunately hardly any of that goes to me. LOL.

Larry

 

[LarryEF]

Kenat,

The paintiff is a privately owned company worth hundreds of millions.

Thanks for your offer. I didn't expect to get anywhere near this many valuable comments.

The title block used attributes entered upon insertion, but no links or relationships to other files.

Thanks,

Larry

 

[KENAT]

I just talked to the guy who made our templates it was a couple of years ago so he can't remember detail but he'd estimate it took 2-4 weeks.

There are provisos: he got interuptions so he probably didn't spend 100% of that time on the templates.

Also he was new to the CAD system which obviously made it slower.

Finally this was effectively 8 templates, B, C, D & E size and each had a continuation sheet format for sheets use on drawings with more than one sheet.

Personally if I had to do it again from scratch then I'd guess no more than 40 hours work, maybe only half that.

 

[ewh]

It took me less than 24 hours to create the 8 templates listed by KENAT, following Y14.1. They are intelligent in that they will self update as file properties change. I recently spent another 10 hours creating a logo (pre-existing, but wrong file format) and updating the formats with it. If it was worth as much as the plaintiff claims, then we are all in the wrong business.

 

[KENAT]

Yeah, thinking about it 40 hours is definitely on the high side.

To do the template for the 'non drawing' 2D cadfile which had a front sheet and continuation, basically only took 3 hours or so plus an hour or two later once I had comments suggestions from others and found a couple of errors to correct.

If it took him thousands he has a problem.

I'll learn his CAD system and create one for lets say, $1m