weighing two job offers-HELP 6

[fermjohnp]

Hi all,

I am posting this thread to get some insight into how i should approach this problem if it occurs.

I recently interviewed with two companies who are almost direct competitors in the machining industry. With the one job i would be trained at the facility which is very close to where i currently live. The other position is similir but there is a 6 month training program in another state. I will learn with 10-15 other engineers and we will then each become experts in our respective territories. With this opportunity i will be away from my girlfriend for 6 months but it is close enough that i will be able to see her on the weekends and we will get some time off for holidays. I will be put up in a apartment (that will be payed for) with the other guys and we will develop some comradery as we progress through the program which will be benefical for us all.

Both positions are application engineering related.

So the question is which one is sweeter if i am offered both jobs? And can i Negotiate salary?

How do i negotiate? Can i tell each company that i have an offer from a competitor? Are there drawbacks to this? I never have had the delemia if this is to happen.

Its worth mentioning that the job that will take me away for 6 months pays hourly (vs other which is salary) and there will be overtime which will help boost my income. I am extremely blessed to have had both interviews go so well.

Thank you in advance for all your comments.

thanks.

 

[Maui]

Pat, most of them are dysfunctional - it's usually just a matter of degree. One of the tell tale indications that a company is suffering from these issues is a high turnover rate, especially in this economy. How the employees interview can also tell you a great deal about the environment if you know what to look for. I'm sure that Cass could provide some additional insights to this discussion based on her recent experience.

Accepting a new position is always a gamble, for both you and for your employer. Good luck fermjohnp, whatever you decide.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[weab]

My 2 cents:

Don't pit one job against the other. You say that there are 10-15 people. Do you think they care if it's 9-14 other people instead? Not likely. You can perhaps negotiate salary, but only a few percentage points. You don't say if this is entry level, but I have a hunch it is. If so, I would say NO to salary negotiation. There are a lot of fish (or engineers) in the sea right now. The job with the 6 months training looks good but I'm curious why they are hiring so many. New positions or high attrition?

I disagree with avscorreia. If you didn't have a girlfriend, would this make your decision any easier? Make your decision on this basis. Perhaps you choose the local job anyway.Twenty years from now when you are married to the 7th girlfriend after this one, you will be happy. Girlfriends come and go, and they are all over the place. Just look outside your window. The right job is way, way more elusive. I must admit that I say this married to a woman who has in the past put up with me being gone for 1- 1 1/2 months at a time. I think I am lucky in the job and spouse sectors.

 

[jmw]

Girlfriends come and go, and they are all over the place. Just look outside your window.

They may be when you are fresh from the education factory but as you age you will find that the situation changes (though on the plus side the age range of prospective GFs expands).

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ports394]

JMW, lol.

OP, I was in a similar situation to you 4 years ago. I was waiting on some interviews-offers locally, and got a great offer to live 3-5 hours from home and train for 6months-1year, and then eventually move to where ever they wanted me. I had been dating my girlfriend for about a year at that point.

I lived in a MOTEL, not an apartment, for a year, and then moved to the frigid north...but I have the job that I wanted. I still can drive home every few weekends 5-6 hours away and see friends and family.

How do you define yourself? Are you an engineer...a family man... etc. I would not base any decision ON her. Perhaps you should be discussing this WITH her. This is the time to talk about where your relationship is going. Maybe she doesn't want to date you long distance.

The clear option to train for 6 months in a structured setting is beneficial.

 

[vc66]

I would not base any decision ON her.

Of course not. Then you're not really using your brain, are you?

V

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I had been dating my girlfriend for about a year at that point.

Are you still with her? ;-)

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[ports394]

Macgyver, nope. We broke up when I decided to take the job.

Vc66, the second sentence was the important part. She should be included in this discussion about his future, not us.

 

[mjcole]

Got a quarter??

Flip it and pick which one!!

What if it lands on it's side.

Michael

"It's not the size of the Forum that matters, It's the Quality of the Posts"

Michael Cole
Boston, MA
CSWP, CSWI, CSWTS
Follow me on !w¡#$%
@ TrajPar - @ Shweep
= ProE = SolidWorks

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If it lands on it's side, go buy a lottery ticket, and quick!

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[casseopeia]

update please fermjohnp!

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[fermjohnp]

Hi All / casseopeia

So i have been offered both positions!

My gf understands the positon i'm in and she says she will stand behind whatever decision i make.


About salary negotiation with the first offer. I interviewed with a assistant manager(who i will report to), along with her manager and another techician. Her manager was foreign he did not talk very much though i'm sure he is extremely inteligent. On the second interview i interviewed with an account executive and the assistant manager again. Now i also have emailed the HR person a bit about questions i have. Who do i send the counter leter offer to? all parties, just assit manger and acc exec. Also how do i say in the counter letter that i have another offer if i do at all? - i don't want to say whether its higher or lower because i feel so many ppl use that line even if they dont! FYI i'm sure they think i will counter, they came in lower than i make now and they sent an unoffical offer thro email.

Also i have never written one of these before so more for me to learn about how to write a good counter offer letter.

Thanks for all your comments everyone.
I look forward to your responses.

and yes the training program with offer#2 is probably entry level however they want me! and pay will be very comparable...They said i was the exact candidate they were looking for.

thanks again and i appreciate your responses.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

There's no need to be specific... I would say you are currently considering multiple offers, you are interested in the position offered (assuming that's true... don't lie about it if you're not), and is there any negotiating room in the previous offer. That gives them the opportunity to decline making any changes to the offer without feeling like you're holding them hostage. Approach with delicacy and you'll both be in a good position.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

You could try the dilemma approach.

You prefer the job with them for bla bla bla (be honest in this) but you have other offers, some at higher pay. Do not be specific in any way including numbers or the other parties.

If there offer was higher, there would be no dilemma and you could start immediately.

As soon as you mention a number, you are past the point of no return. Never bluff unless your prepared to be called.

Never give into pressure to name other offers or numbers. If pressed hard, say it's confidential and you don't betray confidences.



Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[Maui]

I have been in this position before. You will want to disclose to each party that you currently have an outstanding offer from another company, and that you need to decide which one is the best fit for you. But you should not disclose the company name, or the amount of the offer for confidentiality purposes. They will respect you for this because they will be confident that you are not disclosing this information to the other party too.

If they really want you, they will improve their offer. Keep in mind that there are ways to improve the offer in addition to (or in place of) an increase in salary. Negotiating an extra week of vacation is a fairly common result in these situations. If your time off is important to you, you may want to consider mentioning this if the salary bump is not enough for you to accept the offer.

Also be certain to ask them when they need to have your decision. There is a time factor here that is important. If you turn them down, they will need to go back to the other candidates and make an offer to one of them. And the longer they wait to hear back from you, the greater the possibilty that their second choice will no longer be available.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[fermjohnp]

Who does the counter letter go to? HR? or person i interviewed with.

At the second job interview he didn't really know what my salary was going to be.

thanks,

 

[fermjohnp]

magyeverS2000,

Is it really that easy??? send a email to my contact at the company asking if there is any wiggle room and that i am reviewing other offers.

I read an article stating that you need to write a 3-4 paragraph counter letter and have done your research for engineers in that area with your experience level and what they currently are payed. ex: salary.com / payscale.com / jobstar.org/ ect. This should be put in the counter offer if it is lowered than u expected.

thanks for advice.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I find most of those online articles to be complete bunk for anyone other than other marketers...

Writing out a long letter is unnecessary, IMO... and adding detail about what other engineers in your field make is likely going too far (I know if someone sent that to me, I'd consider them a bit too anal, as well as feeling they were merely trying to squeeze a few extra dollars out of me).

I would suggest having a 5 minute phone call with the hiring manager expressing your concerns, gauge his reaction, and go from there. Give them an opportunity to make a second offer without forcing them to decide between a second offer and just dropping you altogether for the hassle.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

What others get is irrelevant.

That you have other offers is highly relevant, BUT the details beyond you have other offers is:-

1) Confidential.
2) Not in your best interest to disclose.

A letter of two sentences is more than enough. A phone call to the person who would be choosing who to hire, most likely your prospective boss, or his boss is better. They will probably refer you to HR, but will also probably give HR a heads up on how bad they want you and how hard to negotiate.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[fermjohnp]

Hi all,

update? i'll provide.

I haven't heard from the first company. i sent a short 5 sentence response to them about neg wiggle room. It was thought out and i know was delicate. It has been a day....no response.

The second company i talked with hr about the benefits and both my manager and his manager. They knew i was asking for a bit more money. The national manager was very plesant with me about the training program and tried to answer any other additional questions i had. I get a great impression about them and the company. The other company seems so typical BIZ while this company seems more relaxed. Seeing as i have come from such a BIZ company although small the relax company seems like a better fit. I still have a few other questions but overall the phone experiences went well with both managers. They seem to really believe in me and think i will be a great employee. I don't think i can pass them up. They feel I have a good background in sales and have the tech background they are looking for. I CANNOT uphold them for more money. Yes i have made decisions but with them i have a new slate. A way to right some wrongs that i have performed at my current company. I do not want to come off greedy. They are giving us a great opportunity. The manager expressed that i will have many options for overtime with travel / tool shows and get this after our 8-5 training day we can take additional courses online or play in the lab and get payed overtime. Darn! thats cool. He feels after we have all gone through this training program we will look back on it as the foundation for our success in the company and some reflect in 30yrs from now.

Oh and we get 1 payed vacation for 4th of july / and two extended weekends. They'll fly us for free or pay for us to drive home. The money they are investing in us is extremely high. For our program they are bringing in alot of experts on topics and we will cover not only the product we sell but software packages ect...

I will easily make the money i was asking for by working past biz hours. They all seem to do. I actually did a simp calc. If i work an average of 2 hours overtime per week I hit almost what i wanted. ahh Winning! this number is probably pretty conservative too.

They are under the gun because this program starts in two weeks. If i denied them they would have to find another candidate. Not that i should care about them but i kinda do. These guys seem much more relaxed than the other company. I think i will enjoy my job and working for the company.

Lastly, the national manager said i was a stand out. I have exactly what it takes because of how i carry myself and because i have the BSME degree. I was like "dude i didn't say much". Makes me feel good that someone has this much faith in my abilities. Where i work i have been put down countless x's. Its demoralizing and frustrating!

I may hear from the first company tomarrow but i don't think there is any offer they can come back with that will make me go with them. These ppl want me and are willing to do so many things to help me succeed.

thanks for all your opinions everyone. I have read all them and used them.

thoughts?

thanks again guys.
fermjohnp

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I will easily make the money i was asking for by working past biz hours.

This could be said of all hourly jobs... "If I work 80 hours a week, I'll make twice as much as those 40-hour guys!"

Overtime is not guaranteed, and you can't claim it as salary if you move to another job... i.e., you're starting off at a lower salary.

I'm not saying your decision isn't a good one, just adding something to keep in mind.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com