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What to do about George... 15

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tipsteronline

Structural
Jan 9, 2006
7
The name has been changed to protect the... well, I don't know if "innocent" is really the right... well, anyway, the name has been changed...

George is the manager of a newly established department in the building services group of a multi-disciplined engineering consulting and land-surveying company, in the upper Midwest. George has been in charge of this new department for about two (2) years.

George is a very nice guy. George is very likeable. George has been adjudged competent to practice professional engineering. George is not a very good leadership choice for establishing and growing a department. Examples of this…

George can’t seem to judge project time. When a new project comes in that might reasonably occupy only a third of an engineer’s or drafter’s time, he consistently over-estimates its complexity. It is not uncommon at all to hear George remark, “Oh, are you already done with that?” Part of this is that George may not be used to working on too much of anything larger than strip malls or multi-family structures, himself. (that last remark was culled from conversations with colleagues of George from other offices.)

George can’t judge talent. George has at least one drafter too many on his staff; but in managing with his heart instead of his head cannot bring himself to trim the resources down to what’s necessary. This is a situation that has existed for almost a year, and shows no signs of changing soon; just like our workload. More importantly, George consistently passes the more important work over the brighter, better qualified and more experienced of the two, only to assign it to the dullard. George should recognize that, with one of the drafters still at the earliest stages of development (and not moving forward quickly) and the other drafter at about a decade of experience (and heck-on-wheels fast, accurate and meticulous about self-checking), the one should be working UNDER the other; assuming there were enough work for two drafters in the first place. Instead, George has taken to sending the best drafting talent we could ask for in this region off to other offices to do THEIR drafting work. George is really working hard to validate the existence of the second position, and in the process is on his way to running off the real talent.

George doesn’t seem to know his own role. As a department manager, one might reasonably expect that George would be slightly less billable to projects than his staff engineers; what with all of the marketing that a department manager should be doing. And, even assuming times are slow, George’s first responsibility as department manager is to keep his people busy with whatever work he CAN secure; not keep said work to make himself more billable. Instead, George’s staff engineers have to literally approach him and beg off work from George that he would otherwise squirrel away and keep for himself.

George’s best “clients” are other departments within the company. George’s main marketing strategy is hyper-focused around building and maintaining relationships with THESE people, almost exclusively. George should look around outside the company, and recognize that there are people working for OTHER companies that might actually hire us. These people are called architects. They are usually listed in the Yellow Pages. It’s alright to call them. They might reject you, initially, for some amount of time. It’s still alright to call them. It’s even alright to call them more than once.

George is licensed in a neighboring state in which the company has no department assets of our type. This means that George has the WHOLE state open to him to market. Of course, inexplicably, George chooses to spend virtually NO time marketing in that state. Even our FIRE PROTECTION folks (in other words, PEOPLE WHO DESIGN SPRINKLERS…!) are making money down there, for goodness’ sake…

George is slowly, and very certainly losing the confidence of the people under him. Even a subordinate who has traveled a fairly long road with George thus far has remarked that he has no idea what logic George is employing in even the most routine circumstances; that he has no idea “…what the heck [George] is thinking, at all…” Some of George’s staff are agitated and even upset. It is a fact that there are other department managers who are aware of this discontent and who understand how it is affecting the growth potential for the department and for the building services group in general. However, it seems not to have excited anyone further up the chain of command, to any extent whatsoever. In fact, it even seems that George received something of a pep-talk from some of his higher-ups not too long ago, wherein they voiced their apparent confidence in his ability to lead and develop the department. It is truly an unusual situation; that a department manager should earn such confidence as George has from HIS managers, without first securing and maintaining the confidence of his OWN subordinates. One would suppose that the latter would be far easier to establish than the prior. Strange… very strange, indeed.

George blew a HUGE opportunity to rectify the above-stated confidence issues with ALL of his subordinates, at the recent end-of-year reviews …

George is a very nice guy. George is very likeable. George has been adjudged competent to practice professional engineering. George is not a very good leadership choice for establishing and growing a department.

What can be done about George? Can anything be done about George…? SHOULDN’T something be done about George…?!!

 
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I think your spending too much of your time evaluating George. It seems to me that George's managers are the ones who should praise Goerge or correct him. If your unhappy then maybe you should find other employment opportunities where your management skills will be appreciated. :>)
 
Suddenly, I find myself hating the name George.

[cheers]
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
 
George seems to be doing what HIS manager expects/wants of George.

Maybe they know something ...?
 
Actually, imok2, I am currently talking to an outfit right across town; and to tell you the truth it looks pretty promising. I just hate to bail on something that otherwise has sooooo much potential. I really like the folks here, and the work is very satisfactory, when we have it. With our company’s commitment to continued education, I’m staying sharp and even making very good strides, technically. The pay is better than average, and the benefits are second to none around here.

Also, our company is a real player in this region; with five offices in three states, and every consulting engineering and land-surveying discipline under the sun. The potential for our own discipline, in a company like this, should be very high; which is why I’m so frustrated with George. In two years, we should have grown; instead we’re barely scraping by...

And, the fact is I’ve already gotten the “green light” to market that neighboring state that I whined about earlier, myself. Our upper management gave me their blessing, noting that, “…that’s definitely a market we should be exploring…” My question is (and, since I actually enjoy HAVING a job, I didn’t bother to ask this out loud to my bosses), why should I have to chase down work that way in the first place, when George is pulling down about twenty-five grand more a year than me to have that little chore listed in HIS job description...?!!

If I gotta do MY job (which is, ostensibly, engineering, mentoring of junior staff, and client retention through contact incidental to my work) and I also have to do HIS job (active, on-the-road-again type, first contact marketing), then what the heck is HE supposed to be doing for that fatty of a paycheck...?

That’s all I’m wondering...
 
"If I gotta do MY job (which is, ostensibly, engineering, mentoring of junior staff, and client retention through contact incidental to my work) and I also have to do HIS job (active, on-the-road-again type, first contact marketing), then what the heck is HE supposed to be doing for that fatty of a paycheck"
But again I say "isn't that for his manager to determine"? If you have the right stuff and it sounds like you do, then I say you will be rewarded for it and not concern yourself with what you consider others short comings and for heaven sakes keep these feelings to yourself...What goes around comes around.
 
tipsteronline,

Since you have been given the "green light" to market in a neighboring state, it seems you have been granted an opportunity to prove yourself capable of being promoted to a department/office manager (possibly in that state assuming you are licensed as well). For that you may end up thanking "George" for having the time to do such exploration. One of George's responsibilities (should) be the development of people under him. How he chooses to do so is up to him. An inexperienced drafter needs work and feedback to become experienced (you mention mentoring junior staff as one of your responsibilities as well). So by sending more work to a junior drafter is a way of providing needed exposure. His retention of work load has allowed (inadvertently or intentionally) you explore other areas of growth (personally and possibly for the corporation).

As a manager, George operation on a different information horizon than those working for him. As imok2 indicates, it is George's superiors that determine whether or not he is doing the job he is expected to do. Do not think that his superiors are unaware of how the department is performing. I have seen managers given good reviews and pep talks right up until the day they are asked to leave the building. If upper management overtly shows loss of faith in your boss, what would that do to productivity within your department (food for thought)? The one area that perhaps is lacking is communication from George to the department staff as to what is coming up and what the expectations are. Communication needs to flow both ways. If you are upset with your situation, have you spoken to him about it?

Regards,
 
I can tell that you have achieved the virtue of patience, imok2... I'm just not sure how you managed that in the consulting world; if, indeed that's where you're writing from.

I appreciate your thoughts on this matter; especially yours, CorBlimeyLimey. I only hope I haven't put you off George's forever...
 
PSE,

I have spoken with him, to the extent that I feel I can without alienating him. I think I’m juuuuuust on the verge of making him feel threatened; probably by my (rather overt) attempts to market AROUND him; instead of through him… I can’t help it; he won’t DO any real marketing, himself. And when I offer to do it myself, he just hems and haws…

We cannot simply sit around staring at the sky waiting for work to FALL out of the clear blue, in this business. We have to make some effort at getting out there; at connecting with potential clients. As most of you know, in consulting the relationship with the client is almost as important as the technical competence of the expert. Marketing and client retention is a people thing, most of all. You can’t just offer it these days; you have to SELL it. George REALLY feels like he’s bothering the heck of a potential client if he calls them more than about annually… no sarcasm in that statement… really. The guy’s just not interested in marketing.

As far as talking to him about staff issues, well, that’s a tough one… I find that they come to me daily, almost in turn, to bitch and complain about George; as though there were ANYTHING that I could do about it besides offer an ear. I cannot bring myself to advance other employee’s agendas; they need to use their own voice, if they really want to be heard.

I do appreciate your insights, PSE. I’ve also seen that play from corporate; wherein they make blatant demonstrations of confidence in an employee (or manager) right up until they show him (or her) the door. Ours being a brand-new department in an office full of established and successful departments, my concern is not that they might eventually consider that George has failed; but that they might consider the whole concept of our fledgling department a failure. I’ve already seen entire disciplines depart from other offices in this company, and I don’t want to find myself out there on the curb next to George.

Makes me think that much harder about that other job, across town…
 
Tipster,

I find it hard to give advise based on your information which does not sound like it is 100% objective. Spend less time thinking/writing about George. You have to work with him, not around him. No boss is perfect. Spend time on your job (this one or the other one if you prefer).
 
Tipsteronline, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your appraisal of George is right on. That being the case, I see two possibilities. As has already been suggested, upper management has got George's number but they're putting on a good face for the troops. We had a "George" and it took 'em four years to get rid of him. They sang his praises right up until the day they kicked him out the door. The funny thing is, they think they are preserving team spirit or whatever, but people are really thinking, "How stupid can you be?" Anyway, if it's this case (how would you know?), you may want to hang in there, do your job and don't worry about George.

Of course, there is always case two. Upper management is as clueless as George and they won't realize the ship is sinking (OK, I'm given to exaggerate) until they're breathing water. In which case (again, how would you know) I'd be looking real hard at that job across town.
 
tipsteronline,

Sounds like you are very close to your "I have had enough of this B.S" limit. If you are no longer happy in your position and have an exit opportunity like you indicate, you may indeed want to take it. Providing you do not burn bridges, you may be able to return to this firm at a later date if/when conditions improve. One red flag for upper management to act is when a middle manager's staff starts having a high rate of attrition.

Regards,
 


PSE,

I have actually seen that happen, around here... folks returning, I mean. I know it's possible to pull that off. It would definitely linger in the back of my mind, if I do decide to move across town; and I would certainly continue to cultivate the better relationships I've been able to establish with higher-ups, here, even after leaving. It's a small market, and I think I could manage to stay in front of them, occasionally; at social and professional type functions, and so on.

dozer,

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt. I think it’s just GOT to be case one. There are just TOO many bright folks in upper management… a little greedy, and plenty of agendas… but just all around too damned bright to NOT recognize what’s really going on.

I just wish like heck I knew what their ultimate plan was, before I scooted outa here. Without even considering myself a possible for that position, there are just SO many qualified old-timers around here that we could easily snatch up, clientele and all, to establish and grow a viable group in this company. I can’t help but wonder if they’ve even considered THAT…
 
Maybe I'm young and naive, but is there no way you could find out what the mgmt views as your future role? Go to George's boss and say "I really like the work, the people here but I want my career to progress and I am wondering if you see me leading a department in the future or should I consider outside offers".

There has to be someway to break that out, all these people in this forum...someone has to have done that.

Just make sure you can get that other job first...hehe
 
Why would you put your own career at stake by saying, basically, "take it or leave it", just because you don't like George?
 
Well, I've actually GONE to upper management already, 49078; in the hopes that somebody... anybody... else is seeing the way things are going in our young department. They didn't really tip their hand about whether or not they're leaning toward some sort of change; but they did seem to indicate that they're listening. And, some of the department managers from other areas of the company have (separately) told me to "... hang in there, for now...", and to "... be patient; discussions are being had...", and so forth. Most of them have worked with each other quite a while, and I don't really much know any of them from Adam; so I hope I'm not being played. The way things are going, it doesn't feel so much like a "career" as only just a "job"...

Our better drafter (the decade-plus one) has become almost despondent; languishing on what amounts to clean-up work while watching the other drafter (two-year nitwit) being given new job after new job, lately. I finally decided it was worth just going to George and laying it out. I told him, hey, I think the way you're managing the drafting is going to cause our most experienced person to walk. He seemed to have no idea what I was talking about. I supposed from his surprise that the drafter had only been lobbying me up to that point. But now it was MY turn to be surprised; when he suggested that (1) if we didn't get busier, we might have to let one of the drafters go, and (2) in his mind, it would be a REAL toss-up...!!! In case you haven't been following the game, let me just tally up the score once more: drafter A, decade-plus of experience, reliable, diligent, hardworking, great attention to detail, back-checks own work, etc., etc... drafter B, reject from another department, saved by George from being fired by previous manager for incompetence (George generously offered to take them on as our new department's first drafter), almost two years of structural drafting experience (not really all that good at it, to date, and not improving real fast...). Wouldn't you know it, though, George is REEEAAALLY leaning toward drafter B... I've never had a boss that managed so much with his heart, rather than using his head. I mean, of course you HATE to let anyone go, for lack of work; but from a business standpoint, this decision ain't even a horse race...

Just to give you a BIT more perspective on George's (mis-)management style, if you will, please note the following: my most recent project (which is still only in schematic) has a $50K structural fee, it is our first bite at the proverbial apple with a very important local owner, and it is our first project with a very prominent, nationally recognized architectural client. You might think that, with all of that riding on the line, you would want to put your best foot forward; you know, send out your "A-team". According to George, the best choice in assigning drafting to the project is... you guessed it... drafter B. When the overall discipline project manager found out, he literally said, "I don't want them on this project. Tell George to give us [drafter A], instead..." Of course I had to remind him that, although I would talk to George about it, it wasn't really up to me or him (the overall project manager), that it was a structural department thing, and blah, blah, blah... It was embarrassing... This project manager, (a manager, himself, of another department) could plainly recognize the flaw in George's logic; but clearly there seemed to be NO second thought about it, by George. Of course he stood right by his choice of drafter for the structural work on the project. (When suggesting the change to George, I mentioned every good reason I could think of, EXCEPT that the overall project manager had requested that I suggest the change... at the time I felt that this questioning of his logic by another department manager might only make him defensive... in retrospect, I probably should have mentioned it; although that manager DID send me to do his dirty-work, rather than going straight to George, himself with his concerns.)

Anyone who has EVER done any amount of marketing (one of George's main marketing strategies is to look up at the sky, longingly, and wait for the projects to drop into his outstretched arms...) knows that there's no second chance to make a first impression. If we want to show an important, brand-new client that we're the best game in town... if we want to convince an owner who provides substantial quantities of lucrative design and construction projects to this region that we can take the best care of them... well, as a person who actually MARKETS to clients and prospective clients, in my opinion this is quite simply not the way to go about it.

Well, as I mentioned, we’re still sitting in schematic… I haven’t given up ALL hope yet that something will happen to save this project, structurally. Besides all of the other implications, we also need to make some money on this job; and drafter B is NOT likely to help make that happen, easily; if at all… while drafter A and I have proven on several jobs that, together, we are more than capable of that.

An old military adage from back in my infantry days comes to mind: piss-poor planning leads to piss-poor performance…
 
tipsteronline,

I have been EXACTLY where you are. You have two options: 1) Check your ego, become a company man, and "hang in there" without saying another word about this unless asked by upper management

2) Continue on the same path you are on, letting it gnaw at you, thinking you could do a better job of managing, and start looking for another job while hoping upper management bails you out.

I went with #2 and they let me go 1 month before I had planned on quitting. You will not win the battle with George. If he is managing with his heart instead of his head, you will NOT sway his opinion. Your efforts and talk on this subject will be seen as disruptive and you will be out.

Having been there, I recommend #1 so that you can leave on your own terms.

ZCP
 
When you put your head above the parapet, expect to be shot at.
Management and, to be fair, normal people too, tend to remember all the wrong things when making decisions.
In another thread somewhere it was stated that most deciisions are based on emotion, not logic.... everyone except engineers who tend to be the other way round, apparently.
This means that when it comes time to "Rationalise" "Downsize" etc decisions will be made on all the "wrong things" e.g. "Tipsteronline always seemed to be a bit of a rebel and a chauvenist. Not a team player."
They won't be looking at who does what and how well, but at who gives them the most grief.....
.... and remember that when there is a mutiny they always round up a few "ringleaders" (the ones who did the talking, not necessarily the agent provaocateurs who put them up to it) and hang them "as a message to the rest.

Whatever the merits of the case as you see it, management always has a different view and when it comes to eye candy (my chauvensit deducion) or the guy who is always challenging the managers leadership style, you know who the manager will put out of the boat and into the water.

JMW
 
zcp,

I appreciate your experience in this area. Frankly, I'm starting to feel that you're absolutely right on, here; and I think I've made about as much noise as I possibly can at this point, anyway... As far as being a company man, well, I've always tried to pitch my views as, "I'm only looking out for the company...", even to George. Maybe I'll just shut the hell up, for a while and see what develops.

jmw... your "Cain Mutiny" scenario now scares the HELL out of me; from the standpoint that I have, indeed been lobbied to assume the role of mouthpiece for the rest of the department. It's just hard, when other people are looking to you to do something that they (apparently) just cannot muster the backbone to do themselves... I really AM a team player; I have been my whole life. That's why I feel compelled to speak out; on behalf of a group that, if properly utilized could BE a great team.

As you point out, I probably have already branded myself a troublemaker, just by my actions to date. Do I now just shift gears into looking out only for number one; or should I try to CONVINCE some of the others to step up and join the fray…? Could there BE strength in numbers, in a situation like this…?
 
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