What to Do 15

[buzzp]

So I have been with this company for nearly a year and have some real concerns with how things are done and not done. This company has been around for many years and rarely had an EE on staff. Is one needed here? For sure.
Since starting, I have had to gently argue the need to have a service entrance rated transfer switch (3000A service). I managed to win that argument. However, I am learning they are withholding information from me and the field is being redirected, contradictory to what the code allows and my design (ignore the need to have a good design - that don't factor in here at all). For example, they were told to use THHN instead of THHW in our underground raceways. They were told they don't need to test the GF circuit on the 3000A service entrance (with a 3000A main breaker). The MCC building had water running down the inside, almost a mini river, when it rained real hard. They withheld this information from me. I know there is a lot more going on there than I know. Unfortunately, these sites are rural and almost never have an electrical inspection. To make matters worse, we have two master electricians on site, who should know the code, who are simply doing what they are told even if it means a violation of code.
I have since learned one of our PE's (structural), who stamps the structural drawings and is employed here has a written agreement with the boss that if something happens due to the boss changing the design, that she will not be liable.
I am at a loss as to what to do. I can't just leave this alone. I know there are many other violations of code. Obviously, I am looking for another job. Should I report these violations to the customer? To the AHJ (if I can find one)? What about the PE with a secondary agreement not to be liable in the event of a problem due to the boss changing the design (like leaving out rebar the engineer wanted)?
Thank you.

 

[IRstuff]

> As a licensed PE, don't you have statutory obligation to report on public safety issues within your area of expertise?

> I think that side agreement is worth less than the paper that it's printed on. A PE ostensibly has statutory responsibility for public safety. It seems to me that such an agreement makes things worse; since they knowingly operated with the presumption of possible violations of their legal obligations.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[dik]

As long as the changes are made without your knowledge, you likely have a legal 'out'... as far as having an agreement about changes... that could be more problematic in that you are aware of changes being made... You are in an uncomfortable position that has no resolution if you want to keep your position... off the side, I'd be looking for other employment.

Dik

 

[Lomarandil]

Just to be clear, what sort of company are we talking about here? If this is a company building elementary schools, it sounds like there are real life safety issues and you have an ethical obligation to report.

If they're designing cell towers in the middle of nowhere, it's possible that a code violation is not the same as a public life safety risk -- which makes for more of a grey area when it comes to obligation to report (IMO, could be wrong).


----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.

 

[KoachCSR]

I understand your point, Lomarandil; however, I would have to disagree with you. Code violations, particularly of the electrical code in this case, may be life threatening to a technician or maintenance person down the road...even in the middle of nowhere.

I once worked on a project that was responsible for designing an emergency system to provide back-up power at a generating facility. The electrical engineer wanted to utilize a custom-made extension cord with two male plugs...exposing a hot end when one side was plugged in to the temporary diesel generator...his argument that we could administratively write a procedure to keep someone from killing themselves with that arrangement fell on deaf ears with me. I escalated it up the chain and it was struck down, thankfully. Even in an outlandish, emergency scenario or the middle of nowhere, proper engineering and code requirements are necessary to protect those responsible for operating and maintaining our designs.

To the original posters' point, I believe you are obligated to report it to the state board who has certified your company to practice engineering in that state. If someone is hurt or worse while operating or working on one of your altered designs, don't hold your breath that you won't be held responsible as the stamping PE.

 

[casseopeia]

I personally could not live with myself if I did not report this. A very similar thing happened to me at my last regular job. I reported a dangerous condition that had the potential to affect many people, and was fired for it. I ended up suing my employer for wrongful termination and won a settlement large enough to pay my attorney's fees and purchase a new Honda CRV Touring. It was not enough to pay for the lost income for the 3-4 years it took nor to pay for the impact to my overall health.

From the experience, I learned a couple of very important things (true at least for California). You must report in a timely fashion, usually 30-60 days after first becoming aware of the issue. You must also report to a governmental agency or agency having jurisdiction. You MUST report to someone who has direct control to shut it down or force compliance. If you do this, you are protected by Federal Whistleblower Laws.

If you are offended by the things I say, imagine the stuff I hold back.

 

[buzzp]

There are people working in these facilities daily. They are not public buildings. Maybe I wasn't as clear but the structural guy is stamping his drawings and he is the one with the agreement with the owner that he won't be liable. I was sure this would not hold water in court but wanted to make sure. Also, I don't stamp our electrical drawings (I am not licensed but operate under the company's general contractor license) but am aware of all the short cuts. I know I would not be held liable in most cases but regardless if I was or not, I think something should be done.
Thanks to all for reinforcing my opinion that something needs to get reported to someone with authority to get it rectified. As far as the PE with the side agreement, should I report this to the engineering board?

 

[IRstuff]

To some degree, this "agreement" comes off looking like the PE is being suborned for future ethics violations, although, it doesn't seem particularly secretive. One might reasonably presume some sort of quid pro quo, i.e., some form of bribery.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[rotw]

Casseopeia,
Did you mean you stated 3-4 years unemployed because of that?
How did you get back on your feet then?
If I may ask beside the main thread discussion.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I always ask myself if I would want to work on/in something that has been "overlooked" from a safety/code perspective... if the answer is "no", then I would consider it egregious enough to warrant spilling the beans. The poor souls who work in/on it every day without the benefit of the knowledge it's potentially not safe, well, they're counting on you to protect them (in however an indirect way).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[msquared48]

Absolutely report it. Otherwise you are complicit in the mistake.

I just had to do the same myself on a job my employer did in the recent past.


Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[ImminentCollapse]

buzzp,
I empathize with you, it is one of the biggest worries of my career to be one day in a similar situation. But I will offer the same perspective that I have in the past on similar posts. You know there is serious issue and now have to do something. When the worst happens and the lawyers arrive, if you have done nothing, you are at risk in some fashion (they may even discover these posts). They go after the deepest pockets, but even if you escape that, your conscience remains and reputation is harmed.

Casseopeia, I have not seen a post from you in a long time, although I do vaguely recall you being in a tenuous situation many years ago. It sounds like it went bad, I am sorry for that, hope you are doing ok.

IC

 

[buzzp]

I have decided to report these issues to the customer and to the state, hoping an inspection will be forthcoming. I don't know if it will happen anonymously or not but it will happen. Obviously if the boss gets word of this I will certainly be let go - never been fired in my life but it would be worth it to me - who needs an electrical engineer with diverse experience? LOL. I wonder how many engineers would actually make the decision to report this knowing their job will likely be in jeopardy. I am guessing less than half would report it.

I am somewhat hesitant to report the structural PE to the board because I have no first hand knowledge of any side agreement, just heresay. I should probably make them aware but not so sure they will have enough to act.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Document everything that happens, in writing and email (to yourself, if that's more comfortable. If they fire you for blowing the whistle, well, there's a reason why the law is called what it is...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[dik]

let alone, one with integrity.

I would advise your employer that he should do this, and that for ethical reasons, you would be compelled to do it in the event he doesn't.

Dik

 

[Sparweb]

Well done buzzp. This won't be easy but you may sleep better.
When reporting to the state did you get the feeling that it would be acted on, and kept confidential?
It probably doesn't matter because your customer probably won't have such restraints on keeping the report anonymous.

STF

 

[Terratek]

If you're smart, your looking for a new job now and not just waiting for other people to decide your fate.

 

[Sparweb]

The OP said so in the first post.

STF

 

[Terratek]

Yep, I see that sandwiched in their now. Then I guess all the wondering about whether getting fired or not in later post is totally irrelevant. Myself, I would have waited till that new job was landed, THEN reported it to the board and moved on with my life. But that's just me - a responsible survivor, not hero. I bet WAY LESS than half would report on an employer before securing a plan B.

 

[rotw]

Lining up a new job may take time. I would try and talk confidentially to another experienced engineer(s) (friend, former colleague, etc.) to get a second opinion / peer review about the risks involved. Based on the outcome, if there is an immediate risk/threat to public safety, this needs to be reported immediately, no matter whether an alternative job is lined up or not. If we are talking sloppy design, or deviations to code which are not "safety critical" (not something we could endorse in ANY CASE), well then probably waiting a little could be advisable. The finality is the same, this needs to be reported, the attempt here is to mitigate any awkward consequences for the OP. Just my opinion.