Why are all cool machines from Germany or France? 10

[curiousmechanical]

Due to the nature of my work, I get to travel around quite a bit and visit many company's facilities. I see a lot of very complex automated machines (very cool stuff) all over the place. Mostly high speed injection molding (making plastic bottles), filling, and packaging machinery. Everytime I ask someone at these companies where the machines come from, their answer seems to always be "from Germany" or "from France" for some reason. Now I know the Germans have an excellent reputaion for engineering. Does France as well? Why isn't the U.S designing and building these machines? Are we not as advanced? Or we more expensive? I know we probibly DO design SOME of them, but it just doens't seem like many.

Does anyone have any insight on this?

 

[Ashereng]

WGJ,

Fair enough - "bashing" may have been a bit more than required.

I suppose my definition would be the following: complex, high-speed, precision, electromechanical, automated, machinery. And yes...Robots are definetly "cool" (if not the coolest)!

Is the U.S. the leader in any kind of machine technology?

He clarified what he meant by "cool".


"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[KENAT]

So in answer to that definition. The US is as far as I know the only supplier of Automated Atomic Force Microscopes for use in the semi conductor industry.

Not sure they meet all your requirements but they are pretty clever, I've been working on them over a year and still don't get a lot of it.

Plus most of them come with a robot to enabalize the automatic loading of wafers.

 

[arunmrao]

In the recent past Ingersoll Rand sold their Air Products division to Atlas Copco. Now comes the news that Volvo has taken over Construction machinery division of Ingersoll Rand. Clearly indicating that the business has now shifted to Europe.

 

[KENAT]

"enabalize" Sorry I don’t think that's even a word, hopefully you knew what I meant though.

 

[WGJ]

I think BJC has a very fine point when he references the understanding of 'creation of wealth'.

A slight off-thread response, if I may.

in the 19th century, the image that many people would have had of the 'creation of wealth' would have had something to do with, I would suggest, three things:

Ideas and innovation
Investment
Last, but by no means least - Hard work.

Whether at the highest or lowest levels in society, if you weren't involved in one, two or all three of these things, you had to have inherited wealth to survive.
I think this would safely apply to farming, industy, engineering and trade.
I also think that this was so during the 20th century up until, say, the 60s.

What happened next?
Well, in the UK we began to see de-industrialisation. Where goods became cheaper to source from outside the nation and where the manipulation of money and the growth of financial services suckered the government and the people into believing that this was the future.
The idea of the creation of wealth via manufacturing and 'adding value' seemed to be lost, and with it the need to train and educate your skilled tradesmen and engineers.

In the UK, until some time around the late 70s, there were numerous technical colleges involved in engineering industry training programmes. Now, in the region where I live, they see so little need/value in this sort of work that the three technical colleges accessible from my home town have moved all their capabilities onto one site, thus slashing the availability of the course by 60 or 70%.
You can get plenty of courses on hotel management, catering and hairdressing, by the way (BJC - were they all on Ark 'C'?)

So, where is it going?
Personally, my own view is too fogged by information and experience to see clearly.

If your ecoomy if too focussed on 'investment' and 'financial services' rather than a balanced mix of finance, trade, industry and agriculture, how will a nation fare in the teeth of an international recession?

If your car industry can't compete with low-cost labour and minimal regulation in China shouldn't you be looking at higher-tech products with greater added-value. or should you loan China the money to develop their car industry for your own short-term gain?

My opinion, for what it's worth:
Rounded education and fundamental technical skill, whatever industry it's in, provides the foundation for stable industry. It may not provide the fat cats with the opportunity for humongous salaries and ginormous bonuses, but it's probably what provides the mass of a population with an income, one way or another.



Bill

 

[KENAT]

WGJ, glad I'm not the only one who shares some of those thoughts & beliefs.

 

[BJC]

WGJ
Well said. If you go shoppoing anywhere in the US it's hard to find something not made in China. You can find a few things made in third world countries but not much made in the US.
China and Japan hold about 60% of the US national debt. China could wreck the US with out ever lighting off a missle.
My contention is that in the modern world the only product worth producing is education. You must build and economy that continually inovates. You must come up with new products and processes continually. If you don't the old ones will become obselete or others will copy or improve on them. If you don't inovate you degenerate and eventually you move to being a colony in the classical definition.
I still can't imagine a 100% service economy.

 

[csd72]

It is because America is stuck in the dark ages regarding dimensions. When the US starts using metric then their machines will be more exportable.

 

[0707]

Go to 2007 world Machine Tool output & consumption survey

To get some surprises about this thread

http://www.gardnerweb.com/consump/produce.html

Regards

Luis marques

 

[curiousmechanical]

csd72,

I never thought of people not wanting our goods because they are not metric. Is this a major issue? I guess our machines would be pretty obnoxious to work on. For example, replacing bolts, nuts, bearings, etc. Is it hard to get inch-size commericial items in foriegn countries?

 

[SomptingGuy]

Woo, we have many shops here (in the UK) specialising in all manner of non-metric bolts from th old days. Give me a vehicle (or bicyle) with all M-sizes any day! A real barrier. Thankfully all talk about "cubes" from America seems to be hick talk (i.e. NASCAR), where progress finished a long time ago.

 

[KENAT]

And remember it's probably less of an issue in the UK which only went metric relatively recently compared to countries that have been metric for 100+ years.

That said from a user view point, if they're computer controlled it shouldn't be that much of an issue should it?

Obviously the maintenance issue is more significant.

My guess is if the tool is better value (taking into allowance potential extra costs due to inch dimensions) then it wouldn't be a show stopper but, if it's otherwise similar value to a metric tool it may be the deciding factor.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I'd assert that many, maybe most, of our major manufacturers (e.g. all US carmakers, Deere, and Caterpillar) are already totally metric, and have been for quite a while.

Our yacht builders are about half and half, but it hardly matters, because they haven't yet understood the concept of interchangeable parts.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[BJC]

A few years ago I ran accross some gas cabinets that had "Panzer threads" on them. I had to investiate that one. The threads were metric but the thread pattern was one developed in the 30s or so for German Armor.
The literature for the product indicated that purchaser could select several types of threads, why they picked Panzer Threads who knows.

 

[csd72]

Wouldnt you pick the bolt from the tank that took 3 shermans to bring it down.

I could start another thread altogether on this story.

 

[WGJ]

Bismarck bolts
Scharnhorst shafts
SS nuts
Messerschmitt bubblecars

Bill

 

[epoisses]

This is an interesting thread read from France. The French always think of themselves as brilliant visionaries but hardly capable of turning their ideas into something profitable (or working, at all).

It appears that more than half of the French (including my wife we had a nice fight over the kitchen table) think that the computer was a French invention but IBM somehow stole the idea. When you question them it turns out that the basis behind this idea is that Pascal was French. When you answer that for example Boole was British, they go "Who??".

The imaginary aspect and indeed beauty of French engineering can be seen in certain cars, especially '50s-'70s Citroens like the 2CV, the Méhari (my favourite) and the godly DS (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën).

After the brilliant ideas had been turned into detailed drawings in their purest possible form, practical and hopelessly boring aspects like maintainability, corrosion protection, reliability of hydraulic and electrical systems were not given much consideration.

French engineering is obviously doomed (the French are born pessimists for some reason) as they schools are hopelessly retarded and the most brilliant students leave the country, but it is still driven by a certain pride and a strong will to think outside the box. The thinking outside the box sometimes becomes obsessive, e.g. when Renault or Peugeot tries a zillionth time to design an original car that can compete with higher range Mercedes or BMWs (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Vel_Satis)

but it keeps French machines interesting forever.

 

[GregLocock]

Citreon, Mercedes, and one other car company, are the only three that I ever had any /real/ interest in working for.

Sadly C and M have revealed feet of clay. The other one is taking over the world. By building beige machines beautifully.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[davidbeach]

The other one is taking over the world. By building beige machines beautifully.

If that's who I think it is, I've never owned anything else. They're broken in at about 100k and then good for another who knows how many miles. The only one I've disposed of had nearly 100k miles on the second odometer, put in with supposedly about 61k on the car. I bought it used from a dealer with the new odometer. Since then I've put nearly 200k miles on a truck bought with just under 50k on the odometer. Soon to be ex wound up with a car we bought new that had nearly 140k the last time I saw it. My latest is just a baby with only 25k miles on it.

 

[WGJ]

It appears that more than half of the French (including my wife we had a nice fight over the kitchen table) think that the computer was a French invention but IBM somehow stole the idea.

Hmmm....other than the inventor of punched cards, Joseph Jacquard, I haven't seen many (if any?) French names in the history of the development of computers....or should that be ordinateurs, as the French have it.

As for business use -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Computers

Bill