Wind Powered Ships 2

[TugboatEng]

Augmented, maybe.

https://gcaptain.com/first-wind-assisted-supertanker-delivered-in-china/

It even has a real number, 9.8% reduction in fuel consumption. A typical tanker will consume ~500-600 bbls of fuel per day so that's no trivial number.

Alas, there is little interest as it's not "zero".

 

[btrueblood]

I have just one more insight, and that is fuel cost variations. Growing up, my best friend's Dad flew for a national airline as captain. He mentioned that the fuel load on a plane will vary, and generally not often filled to the full tank capacity - because the extra dead weight reduces speed and thus efficiency. Also, cost of fuel at our local airport was higher than the cost at the airline's hub (nearer the center of the country), so on out-and-back flights via the hub, they would often fill up only at the hub because it ended up cheaper in overall costs (also saved some time at the out-port) regardless of the efficiency hit.

 

[btrueblood]

Back to Tug's original topic - I thought i had read somewhere about somebody working to make a fully sail powered cargo liner, or possibly a sail/electric hybrid with diesel backup (use the sails to turn props in reverse and charge the battery, augmented with solar cells, and have battery powered thrusters to use when docking at ports). Google agrees with me, and apparently more than one company is pursuing it -

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/12/swedish-firm-wind-powered-cargo-ships

https://maritime-executive.com/arti...ed-cargo-ship-refines-design-with-rigid-sails

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/wind-powered-cargo-ships

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-shipping-goes-green?leadSource=uverify wall

 

[btrueblood]

Swinny, maybe a waste of time explaining engineering and economics to one person, but it's good to see the record set straight in case somebody googles the topic and comes upon this thread.

 

[SwinnyGG]

but it's good to see the record set straight in case somebody googles the topic and comes upon this thread.

This is why I continue to engage in threads where you-know-who posts a bunch of incorrect 'facts'.

 

[dik]

can concur... having designed a bunch of aircraft runways and taxiways... the load of the fuel is considered.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[enginesrus]

But swinny this is about regressive powering ships with wind? So why not regress with aircraft as well it is just a better option than no aircraft at all.

 

[SwinnyGG]

So why not regress with aircraft as well it is just a better option than no aircraft at all.

Fun fact, ships and aircraft are different

 

[TugboatEng]

The fully sail powered ship is an example of the problem. It's a pipe dream meant to dupe investors and governments out of their money. Just like airlines, speed and economy are crucial. Faster ships means fewer ships. It's harmful because it diverts money away from legitimate solutions.

 

[enginesrus]

All here are missing the point. They don't want a fuel burning anything, that means no turbines or jets. That means a slow aircraft is better than no aircraft.

 

[SwinnyGG]

They don't want a fuel burning anything,

Uh.. that would mean no pistons either, dude.

As long as we're burning fuel, turbines are going to continue to provide the most efficient power for aircraft. It's a fact.

 

[btrueblood]

Tug, can't disagree with you at today's fuel prices, even with gas pushing $5/gal locally. Ain't nobody got time for their shipments to arrive "when the wind is right". And the rotor sails make a good compromise of not taking up too much deck space while still delivering a benefit.

 

[dik]

There are probably going to be some big changes, coming up.

-----*****-----

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[LionelHutz]

You've already got your own series of threads for that non-stop everything that happens weather relates is climate change doom and gloom.

 

[dik]

Thanks Lionel... but the response is just as applicable, here.

-----*****-----

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Negative, the doomsaying prevents progress. It polarizes minds and sets unachievable/wasteful goals. It needs to be contained.

 

[enginesrus]

Turbines in aircraft are only efficient if the planes are filled to capacity every flight, and they are allowed to fly very high and very fast and not go to the various hubs. The short hops are not for turbines, a gallon per second per engine at take off adds up as well as ground operations. All cross country flights need to be direct, no layovers etc. Back in the day a C97 flew from Wa DC. to Seattle Wa in around 6 hours or so. There aren't many airliners now that do that.

 

[SwinnyGG]

There aren't many airliners now that do that

Do you even try to verify if the things you say are true, or do you just say them

 

[TugboatEng]

It took a remarkable amount of turbo machinery (centrifugal superchargers and turbochargers) to assist the piston engines of the C97 to get to 375 mph. It's as if the piston engine was holding everything back.

The Napier Nomad was interesting. It was basically an attempt to make a turbine cycle engine with pistons. It was filling a hole in turbine tech but once the pressure ratios of the turbine engines improved that hole was filled.

 

[LionelHutz]

The short hops are not for turbines

Trying to change the story to support the narrative BS again? The most efficient plane on a low passenger count short route is likely a prop plane but the power plant is still turbine based. Only the smallest airlines fly piston planes and those decisions are more based on plane cost than trip cost. Even the larger Beaver operating "bush plane" airlines in Canada only runs turbo-props. But interestingly, they might also be the first to a commercial electric plane in an electric Beaver.

 

[TugboatEng]

I doubt that. Cold weather battery plane? It's a scheme to scam the government out of money. They'll build a plane at high cost, all parties involved will share that funded cost, the plane will then be declared too costly to operate and get mothballed indefinitely at taxpayer cost.

Still off subject but turbines have an advantage of no warm-up time. That makes them ideal for short hops.