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Maui I didn't know that either - I might still be a little wary of the assertion but the writer seems to convey that she has seen this and knows it occurs.

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Maui,

I think that the discussions that have been going on demonstrate that objective study is nearly impossible at this stage in history. People don't really know what motivates them until much therapy and analysis have been performed. Certainly, people have convinced themselves to go a particular way, only to realize years or decade later that they actually were kowtowing to parental or societal desires.

Moreover, while we retain feelings generated by random events, we might not recall the specific events themselves; this is supposedly the root cause of certain discrepancies in the health of African-American that's being laid on the effect of pervasive discrimination on mental and physical health.

Men, if we believe that they are ostensibly the power class, ought not have the same concern applied to those of the underclass, whether they're women or blacks. This morning, there was a new bit about men claiming discrimination because they're excluded from certain women's groups and even "Ladies Nights." If this were a truly gender neutral world, that argument might hold water, but it's not, and won't be, for some time to come.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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In the real world, most people can make decisions without facts.

Engineers tend to be more fact based, weather needing most, or all the facts to make a decision.

And there are a few people who despite having all the facts can't make a decision.

And while I have no information on the gender breakdown of this, I seem to hear more from one gender than the other.
My takeaway from all of this is that I run in to more of one gender than the other (could it just be a nature thing).

Or said another way, things may not be what they appear.
Some people maybe wired differently and be more of followers, some leaders, and those who follow their own paths.



 
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I don't think that there is any decision ability breakdown on gender. I think there are breakdowns in environments. A guy can be aggressive and decisive and be looked at as in charge. There are less than flattering remarks often made about women who do the same. Any differences, I believe are trained in by the environment. I can't accept the belief in there are differences in ability when at every level in the educational system, women perform men and now outnumber men substantially in university enrollment.

There are issues ,too, of not getting assigned the prime projects which allow for learning and growth. If you aren't properly mentored, supported, and given opportunities, your career will be very stunted. Biases play heavily in my opinion into that.

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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.
 
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Pam,
Interesting article. Note that it's not based on published results, but on preliminary evidence...

I would be the first to suggest the cause is the lack of participation in family life by men. I'm among the guilty.
It's hard to rationalize the "caught off guard" part, though. The amount of home and family duties carried out by men and women has been studied for decades and always found disparate.


No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF
 
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This is encouraging; 39% increase in women taking AP Computer Science Exam bringing them up to a smidge over 28% participation rate.

Of course, the bad news is that it makes getting into a CS program in college all that much more competitive.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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HamburgerHelper said:
I think there are breakdowns in environments. A guy can be aggressive and decisive and be looked at as in charge. There are less than flattering remarks often made about women who do the same.
Click to expand...

That's part of the problem. I've experienced it often. I've talked with several female engineers over the summer who experienced the same treatment often. Many men are taken aback by a strong woman. A female EE about 20 years my senior has been telling me that for about 10 years. A lot of men do not like nor want strong, smart, educated women. I don't understand why but they have their reasons and it's their right to have that attitude. It is not proper to use that attitude against any woman.

Some of the work environment that needs to change to benefit women I see as benefitting men, too. A more flexible, family friendly work environment would benefit men as much as women.


Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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"Many men are taken aback by a strong woman."

That speaks volumes about where gender equality is. I certainly have noticed that most of the female leads or program managers don't get the respect that a comparable male would get; the capital "B" label is often bandied about, but a guy would simply be "tough" and "in-charge."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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Pam,
I feel bad that I haven't been participating in this thread as much as I'd like to. I feel like I have a lot to say, hopefully some of it useful, but also reluctant, because it's like talking about co-workers behind their backs. Normally I get by with vague references to people I work with, and move on to the question or concern to be discussed. On this subject, it's different because I would want to draw out my observations more specifically, but it would be obvious to the person involved who I'm talking about. While I believe I can justify anything I would say, good or bad, that doesn't mean I should be talking about it openly with a bunch of strangers. I see Eng-Tips on many of my co-workers' screens, and while few of them realize I'm "Sparweb" yet, some do, and there's no reason for me to keep that a secret from the rest.

So just in very vague terms, I've worked almost my entire 19-year career where >90% of my co-workers were men. Women, regardless of their technical background, were very rarely seen doing technical work, either in the design office, the shop, or the hangar, and if they got sidelined by family issues, well, that's the way it always is, right? In recent years, I was making protests about the hiring and training practices my employer was making, mistakes not specifically related to including women in the department, but if they were fixed, would make the department much less hostile to them anyway.
This suddenly changed when I moved to my current employer earlier this year, who is much more actively hiring not just women but a diversity, too. There are almost as many women in this engineering dept as men, and there are so many differences to what I've seen before I don't know where to begin. The whole atmosphere is different.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF
 
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SparWeb, I understand your situation and don't feel any pressure to reveal something that is inappropriate to reveal. I am glad you're in a different work atmosphere and I hope it's positive. I've worked in mostly or all male environments. When women were present, they did technical work but were not going anywhere in their careers.

RickyTickyTavi, congrats on the upcoming bundle of joy! I'm glad you have 12 weeks paid paternal leave and do take full advantage of it. It matters for your family and changing the work culture for the better.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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If a man is aggressive or rude then he is often said to be a 'c***'. If a woman is aggressive or rude then she is often said to be a 'b****'. While the words might be somewhat gendered in their application, the intent of the words is exactly the same. I don't know anyone who has been affronted by a man at work and just thought that was okay because that man was 'taking charge', or some other nonsense. To be honest I find that assertion ridiculous, unless your office has some form of collective Stockholm syndrome to that man.

Behaviour is viewed based on what is 'normal' for an individual: if a normally placid person decides to start screaming this would be viewed as out of the ordinary and invoke a much different reaction compared to if a naturally aggressive person started screaming. Peoples' views of others are based on a benchmark or baseline of what they expect from those others, so perceptions need to be considered in a normalised framework (i.e. baseline +/- amplitude). This 'baseline' for men would tend to be on the more aggressive side, considering the impact of hormones like testosterone and oestrogen on behaviour. As such, the type of aggressive behaviour we are discussing will inevitably be seen as less out of the ordinary from most men because the baseline behaviour tends to be on the more aggressive side. The reaction will therefore differ.

In the above there is an important part which explains the inequality of perception: 'what they expect'. Going through life all of us have tended to see men as relatively more aggressive or assertive than women, overall, for various reasons (cultural, social, economic and, yes, biological reasons are all influences). This experience-based perception is applied to identifiable groups and results in bias. Likewise, such experience-based perceptions have shaped all sorts of interactions between human groups throughout history.

This inequality of perception can only go away when the experience base is eroded. The only thing we can do to erode that experience base is to deal with the 'nurture' side of things: social constructs, institutional discrimination, etc. The 'nature' side cannot go away, so some bias will always remain. Nonetheless, the better use of effort in the short-term is turning an inequality of perception to an advantage.
 
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Pamela,

Thanks for that link at the top. I found it pretty interesting, but it was 25 years old. Do you think the stuff in that report still holds true today? If so, which stuff has changed and which hasn't?

I've found out personally very recently that the "children" issue has not been resolved at all in my field. My wife and I are both engineers, and I began running my own business in part so I could split the child duties 50/50 with her. She's recently been stricken with cancer, and is on disability now, so I'm doing all the childcare, homemaking, as well as taking care of her medical needs. Since we were piggybacking on her insurance, I put some feelers out with some of my client companies to see if I could work for them at reduced hours and reduced pay, to handle my home responsibilities and still get medical covered. The feedback was pretty stark. Basically, "nope." I could work 50 hours a week for them and hire a nanny, or I could not work for them at all. Cultural barrier. And it strikes me that every single mom in the country, and plenty of women who want to take a more active role in their families, run into that barrier.

I see the same thing in the employee profiles at my clients offices. Lots of younger women in their 20s doing very well with their careers. The numbers drop off steeply in their 30s.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. This seems to me like it might be one of the primary issues.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
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During employee orientation in a room of 150 or so, we were asked to list out put together of five things the company did right and five things the company could work on. The HR rep went around asking people to say what they put on the list. One girl in engineering said matter factly, "senior engineering is made up of enclusively white males." A lot of sighs were let out when she said that but it isn't like what she was saying wasn't likely an accurate representation. The HR rep replied "That is something we are working on to try to change." It put HR on the spot for a problem with no quick or easy fixes. I had to admire though how much gumption she had with only having been at the company for 6 months or less.

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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.
 
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Here's a rather amusing story; Amazon's AI for sorting through job applications is SEXIST! Apparently, it was trained to find qualified applicants, based on previous hires, which were mostly male, and successfully figured out how to discriminate against women based on the training set. It figured out words and colleges on resumes that indicated the applicant was not like the training set.


TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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I'm not a big fan of trumpeting "systemic sexism/racism!" all day every day like many other people seem to do. In my view, racism is fundamentally an act of the individual, and if a "system" is made of nonracist people then the system won't be racist itself. That's just a personal opinion, and others are welcome to hold different opinions.

This stuff, however:

So, in principle, and in practice, one could advertise jobs, but tailor the ads to exclude all sorts of undesirable segments, like women, or minorities.
Click to expand...

...where AIs or heuristics are allowing targeted ads within social media platforms, and that targeting is breaking down intentionally or not along gender/race lines, just freaking screams "systemic racism" to me. Ben Carson was right to go after Facebook for it.

Here's a rather amusing story; Amazon's AI for sorting through job applications is SEXIST! Apparently, it was trained to find qualified applicants, based on previous hires, which were mostly male, and successfully figured out how to discriminate against women based on the training set. It figured out words and colleges on resumes that indicated the applicant was not like the training set.
Click to expand...

Any nitwit who knows how neural networks operate should have been able to predict this. Neural Nets are blind learning machines, whose only job is to replicate predictions based on input data, without human judgment or reason. If you train an ANN against a set of data, it is going to try to reproduce that set of data as closely as possible. Train it on male resumes, get male hits. The programmers should have known better from the beginning. Makes me wonder what sort of talent they hired at Amazon that wouldn't pick up on that sooner.


Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
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