Women in Engineering II 54

[lacajun]

Since the first post on this is closed, I decided to begin a new post.

This is a dated but interesting report that I'm working my way through. As I read through it, I see improvements that can be made to benefit women as well as men.

Women in Engineering: An Untapped Resource

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[IRstuff]

"Then, ignoring the 90 and pointing out the 10 as if they were the total. That's typical of any lot of persons who get comfortable in feeling discriminated upon and in playing the victim part. "

Is this what Faux News is reporting, because no woman I know is taking that position.

Are you saying that women aren't discriminated against?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[JohnRBaker]

greenone, back in the 60's and 70's, absolutely no one was using terms like 'draftsperson' or 'salesperson' at least not in that part of the country where I was working. And while I might agree with you philosophically, at least back then, I can't recall anyone being particularly upset with the use of historically non-gender-neutral terms when there was no misogynistic intent in the context of their usage.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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[greenone]

No one was upset? Maybe not that you noticed.
How about the time I was at a railroad engineers meeting, and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen. This was in the 70's.
I'm not trying to get you to drive a Delorean back to then, I'm just asking that you consider the impact of language today.

 

[vthomidis]

I did get tired to continue arguing.

My position has been stated in my previous posts : victimhood obsession, political correctness brainwashing, neomedievalism.
(i am not a native English speaker, therefore please excuse my poor vocabulary)
At the end of the day, if you gals (and you "supporting guys") believe that US society of the previous say 40 years has been so sexist, racist, chauvinist or whatever - you may know better than me.
In my corner of the globe (Greece), we have a better impression on the US.

Hope that some Martin Luther Queen will come along and fight for your rights...

 

[hokie66]

greenone,
It was no big deal in the 70's because no one made it a big deal. Now, however, lots of folks want to butcher the English language by making everything non-gender. A move is underway even to remove gender from birth certificates. I for one am not buying any of it. Call me what you want, just call me to dinner.

 

[Latexman]

Dinner time, come get it!

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

 

[CWB1]

and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen.

If this was in the US then he probably just thought you were rude as hell for calling him out on a faux-pas as most would. You might as well have called him out on minor grammar or spelling mistakes in his presentation while at it. In either case you come off as an arrogant ass most likely compensating for lack of ability otherwise.

John-in the time it took you to type your callout recognizing that "men" is a problem, you could have thought for a sec and used a gender-neutral term-e.g., drafter and salesperson. Language matters-keep telling a little kid there are draftsmen and she starts to believe there are no females in drafting.

As every American child and I'm sure many foreign children are taught, words ending in "man" or "men" are gender neutral. Both my 60 year old copy of Webster's and the current online version define those words as "a person who..." My wife is a fireman as are two other women in her dept. Children dont recognize her uniform, but add turnout gear and they come running and recognize her as a "fireman" with no concept of what boys or girls can/cannot do. Tell them she's a "firefighter," "firewoman" or something otherwise and you'll get a confused stare from most preteens.

My father told me at an early age that you can either choose to live a happy life or a miserable one. If you go looking for misery or offense, there's no doubt you'll find it at every turn. In reality the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination, yet according to many we are hardly beyond slavery.

 

[JohnRBaker]

CWB1, I was generally agreeing with you, right up to your last sentence:

In reality the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination, yet according to many we are hardly beyond slavery.

I'm sorry, but I suspect that the people who fail to agree with you will be able to make a very good case for their position.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[CWB1]

Sure John, they can point out many ways in which specific groups are oppressed by a minority of folks in another group. I can then rebut with ways in which the oppressed groups knowingly do the same to their "oppressors" and they will defend it as balancing the scales. Tit for tat doesn't accomplish anything so is rather pointless. Much the same can be said for taking a militant approach toward reaching equilibrium, its counterproductive and chasing diminishing returns.

 

[IRstuff]

"they can point out many ways in which specific groups are oppressed by a minority of folks in another group"

And THAT makes "the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination?" Is DWB just mass hysteria in your view? Or that the fact that women have systematically been paid less for equal work not sexism?

" can then rebut with ways in which the oppressed groups knowingly do the same to their "oppressors" and they will defend it as balancing the scales."
Which examples of whites being oppressed by blacks can you cite?

The US government itself has had a history of discriminating against minorities and people of color. The Voting Rights Act is barely 53 years old, and it's pretty clear from what's been happening the US and elsewhere that not even 530 years is sufficient to weed out discrimination and racism. Korematsu's internment was not repudiated by the US Justice Department until 2011 and the Supreme Court in 2018. That means that US Government has held that it was within its right to summarily place their own citizens in concentration camps solely because the color of their skin. Despite helping the US expand to the Pacific by working on the Transcontinental Railroad, the US enacted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, whose provisions were not fully abolished until 1965.

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[CWB1]

And THAT makes "the US is pretty well free of racism, sexism, and discrimination?"

As good as its likely to get? Yes. I watch junior engineers chase perfection daily because they can't recognize "good enough," often taking 10 steps backward to end up at the same conclusion for no gain. In any large population of data there's going to be anomalies, just as in human nature there's always going to be hate and jealousy of others causing a minority of folks to do stupid things and cause issues. So long as those anomalies are a statistically rare occurrence then you often stand a better chance of causing more harm than good when proposing change. IME discussing these issues with friends and family an interesting observation regularly comes up, folks point out that those pushing for social justice change today are mostly older Americans whereas younger generations prefer to focus on improving our economy and regaining personal freedoms after decades of loss.

Which examples of whites being oppressed by blacks can you cite?

The most relevant example for this forum that comes to mind are the various social welfare quotas that have favored minority education at the expense of other, better qualified candidates.

 

[IRstuff]

"at the expense of other, better qualified candidates"


And how did they get their better qualifications? Was it not through the status quo that favors whiter and more affluent children? And how did these oppressed minorities achieve this coup in power over their oppressors? Was it not actually that some of their oppressors recognized the inequity in the status quo and changed it? Certainly, prior to Obama, there was no black president and/or Congress that could have achieved such and upset in oppression, was there?

And, does anyone really forget that even decades after the Voting Rights Act, there's been a continued stream of racists in power, such as David Duke? Did racism suddenly disappear in the last 20 years? Did a avowed racist named Steve Bannon become an advisor to the current president?



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[JohnRBaker]

The most relevant example for this forum that comes to mind are the various social welfare quotas that have favored minority education at the expense of other, better qualified candidates.

And how are 'legacy' admissions any different? The result is exactly the same, yet very few people are suggesting that this is somehow a problem that needs to be addressed. Why is that?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[hokie66]

IRstuff,
David Duke is a racist, but when has he been "in power"? And where did you get the idea that Bannon is an "avowed racist"? This rhetoric sounds very akin to Hillary Clinton's "deplorables" description of many of us, and look where it got her.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Well, David Duke was elected to the Louisiana legislature so he had at least some 'power'.

As for Steve Bannon... well in his own words:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/10/politics/steve-bannon-national-front/index.html

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[RickyTickyTavi]

David duke was also rather close to being elected to the Senate or Governership in the early 90's I believe. He managed to get a majority of white voters to support him.

 

[hokie66]

In that clip, he didn't call himself a racist or a xenophobe. He said other people call his audience that, and they should accept the insults as a badge of honor. Judge him however, but he did not "avow" that he is a racist.

 

[JohnRBaker]

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[IRstuff]

Bannon ran a white nationalist website; his actions are his avowal. He's certainly not by any stretch of anyone's imagination a multiculturalist.

"It’s been almost a Camp of the Saints invasion into Central and Western and then Northern Europe."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[hokie66]

Whatever you think of Bannon, as far as I know he is not an avowed racist. You may think that he has demonstrated that he is a racist, but you don't avow by action, you avow by words. Maybe I'm just being pedantic, and Bannon doesn't need me to defend him, but I am a bit sick of the derogatory rhetoric (racist, misogynistic, jingoistic, homophobic, redneck, etc.) being thrown around indiscriminately. Not to speak of time honored words like patriotism and nationalism being given new meanings with the intention to demean.