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Women in Engineering II 54

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No one was upset? Maybe not that you noticed.
How about the time I was at a railroad engineers meeting, and the keynote speaker opened with "Welcome, gentlemen...". When I approached him afterwards, he brushed me off with it was no big deal. His perception was I had no right or reason to be upset at being addressed as gentlemen. This was in the 70's.
I'm not trying to get you to drive a Delorean back to then, I'm just asking that you consider the impact of language today.
Click to expand...

I have a funny(?) water cooler story to share.

One of my family members is a relatively successful female fiction author, with an advanced degree from a well known private northern school with an internationally recognized football team. (enough clues) She is very liberal, both by my own read and her own pretty staunch admission, and in her late 30s. She returned to her alma mater to do an hour long talk in front of the literature students there, about her experiences as an author, the act of writing, and such. She talked for about 45 minutes about the topic of writing, to a relatively attentive audience. When she was done, she opened the floor for questions by saying "Do you ladies and gentlemen have any questions?"

The first response was, "Don't you think you should rephrase that so as not to offend or exclude those who identify as nonbinary?"

So she said, "Okay, you (F)ers, got any questions?"

The sponsoring professor did admit that that was a more gender neutral way to address the audience.

Not sure what lesson we learn from this, exactly, but it seems to me that what constitutes "offensive speech" is a very sliding scale, and even people who are doing their best to not offend are getting worn out by what's going on with today's growing "culture of offense." There has to be some threshold, somewhere, where we just say "tough it out." I'm not saying I know what that threshold is, but I know it's nonzero.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
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Could be ND, I tend to associate Indiana with the mid-West, but that's me.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.
 
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Since beej67 appears to be located in Georgia (at least that's what E-Tips is reporting), therefore, Indiana would qualify as a "northern" local.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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Boo Notre Dame!

/Purdue Graduate.

Anyway, discussing beej67's story, I'm inclined to agree - to an extent. My personal opinion is that the student might be correct, however he or she probably needs to learn a better way of having people change behavior. Language to me is pretty dynamic and subject to change; so while the english language may have had nouns that were perceived as gender-neutral; they are no longer perceived that way by many, which may constitute a change in language. I'm not one to get upset at a persons use of gender-nouns; and in the scheme things, I think what the student did was bit "nit-picky".

 
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It sounded to me to be an attempt to publicly ding an invited speaker; there's ALWAYS one of those in a crowd, looking to show how smart or better they are. It likely had zero to do with actual sympathy or empathy with the genders in question.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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No disagreement, but they haven't had equal opportunity...
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Actually you are disagreeing with me. You're saying that its perfectly acceptable to discriminate against an individual based upon a stereotype. I'm saying that's never acceptable, plain and simple with no buts, ifs, or other nonsense.
 
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beej's story is "only" the modern equivalent of the previous post; diversity has (seemingly) no limit. "you're all individuals"

so instead of being polite with "ladies and gentleman", the question boils down to "do you have any questions?" or ( to give meaning to "you") "I now throw it open to the audience, do you have any questions ?"

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
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Let's go back to this one, because there's an issue of disjointed realities when this topic is discussed.

IRStuff said:
Or that the fact that women have systematically been paid less for equal work not sexism?
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There's a huge trend in the media to talk about 22 cents on the dollar, and then slip "equal work" in the back door of the discussion when "equal work" does not fit the 22% figure, statistically.

Obama's department of labor did a pretty exhaustive multivariate analysis on the gender wage gap in 2009. Link:


After controlling for the confounders for which they had data, which would include "equal work," the wage gap shrunk to between 4% and 7%. Those confounders included choice of profession, choice to have kids, how many kids, how many years people take off of their professional careers to do other things (which may include children, or taking care of the elderly), whether you're a single parent, whether your household is a two income household, and such. It did not include things like personality type, or how aggressively the different genders tend to negotiate salaries, or how often they switch employers to chase a better paycheck, because they didn't have data for those. But each of those impacts salary as well.

So the salary impact of those things (personality typing, negotiation, etc) as well as workplace sexism, all must fit within that band of 4% to 7% differential.

If we're going to speak honestly about the gender wage gap, we need to acknowledge up front that sexism likely does play a part, but that the media is grossly overstating that part. And that analysis is almost a decade old. The band may have shrunk further.

There's also some touchy math we'd have to do regarding the male variability hypothesis, which was a thing that sexists used (very improperly) to justify sexim for a while, but non-sexists are finding unbiased evidence for in modern studies. So for instance, the median scores across genders on the ASVAB are basically the same, but the male bell curve is flatter, with more males appearing on both tails of the graph. (more smarter males, more dumber males) This wouldn't matter at all for the "22 cents on the dollar" math if the income distribution were linear, because the high and low variabilities in men would average out. But income distribution is not linear, and that nonlinearity is increasing, with a higher share of the income being increasingly concentrated in the bank accounts at the right hand side of the bell curve. So that's going to skew the numbers some. I can't say how much, maybe not a lot, but it's worth mentioning. It would probably take an actuary to unravel how significant that effect is, honestly.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
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Bottom line from the report- "Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that
collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and
thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. "


I tend to see/ hear the 20% gap reported more than the 6% figure.

Probably never know the truth but there has been a big change in industry over the last 30 years, something to celebrate.

Still much to do but I suspect based on my 20 year old daughters attitude the up and comers will take their place and not complain about any mistreatment real or imagined.

Which is how such matters should be resolved.

IMHO
 
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"Which is how such matters should be resolved.

So, if they get harassed or assaulted, they should "not complain about any mistreatment real or imagined?"

The implication is that they will not put up with it and will take whatever steps are necessary to correct the situation.

One should not automatically default to a victim mentality. It is not a healthy or productive lifestyle.

Nor is constantly being in virtue signalling mode.

 
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Wage gap, I never made as much as my male counterparts. I mentioned this a manager once and was told that I didn't need to earn what they earned, since I was female, unmarried, and no kids. The men were married and had kids and needed to earn more than me. So much for free markets.

I listened to a social scientist and a financier discuss the economy recently. Both said we like to work and deal with people that look like us. That homogeneity is dominate in finance and it's not healthy.

I don't think some men understand the work, upheaval, complaining, disruptions, etc. that women and others have to produce to effect change. I don't know any woman that really views herself as a victim even though she has certainly been. Often I didn't respond to any offenses. Women, more often than not, just tolerate discrimination and poor treatment and keep doing their jobs. That's my observation of the women I've worked with and others I know. I've tried to effect change, when problems got too severe. You have no idea how difficult that is. Most people thought I was very easy to work with. I learned trying to effect change for the severest problems that if one party is not interested, it won't happen. A plant manager once told a group of us how we looked and the most problematic engineers didn't care one durn bit. There was nothing I could do to change those relationships and HR was useless. Some of those men had been to "play nice with others" training 3-4 times and it hadn't worked. The trainer recognized them and knew how many times they had been through his training. He's a good trainer. And some white men are claiming victimhood and joining support groups, too. Women and others don't carry that mantra alone now.

Speaking for myself, I never anticipate any man discriminating against me because of my gender. Yet, it has happened and more than once. Again, if a man will tell me that by getting the engineering degree that I have taken a spot a man should have, who is being discriminated against? If my business, per that same man, should belong to a man, who is being discriminated against?

When I talk to people and hear stuff like that, they reveal how little they truly understand about how life works. I know because I've been guilty of it myself.

If you have integrity, you will want to treat people as your equal because you see their value, too. I suppose kindness will produce the same treatment of others.

Recently, someone used the term "narcissistic arrogance," which I think fits in a lot of ways today. We really need to get over ourselves and learn some humility. It matters greatly.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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was told that I didn't need to earn what they earned, since I was female, unmarried, and no kids.
Click to expand...

That's actually not an uncommon belief. In the military I often saw myself or other single soldiers tasked with holiday, weekend, or other undesireable duty hours/locations because we were single and didnt have family concerns. In the civilian world I've heard it several times planning layoffs - lay off the single folks first, they dont have families to consider. In both worlds I've seen a serious tendency for folks with family to get progressed through the ranks faster, and several sham marriages between parties in the same office(s) to effect that end. By far the worst IMHO tho was a manager when I worked in Indiana (they'll kill you with the Bible says this quiet Christian) that told me I needed to "stop living in sin if I wanted to do well" within the company.

Again, if a man will tell me that by getting the engineering degree that I have taken a spot a man should have, who is being discriminated against?
Click to expand...

Not to defend this one, but I do have one possible bone to pick with it. In my field I have noticed many engineering grads coming out of college wanting to be in non-engineering roles, usually some form of project management. I have also witnessed quite a few folks hired to fulfill an EO quota, only one of which actually engineered anything. While I do not have a sexist, racist, or other discriminatory bone in my body, I have stated my belief on several occasions that an engineering degree does not make an engineer nor is an engineer someone who only holds project management responsibilities. I've worked with enough highly educated PMPs to find that a bit insulting to them and a waste of an engineering position. IMHO, if an engineer isnt willing to learn to be a proper engineer then yes, they have taken a spot someone else should have.

OTOH, if you were in a proper engineering slot and actually engineering (or at least attempting to learn to) then my apologies, there's no excuse for that garbage.
 
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With a brief look at the OP's business website, one would not need to adorn one's posts with CYA statements... one could just delete the sidetracked part in the middle and leave it at that.
The first part about considering family status in promotions or layoffs is well taken, however, and something that I might consider myself, if I were in that position. However, I still don't see how the gender of the engineer facing such a promotion or layoff would factor into that part of the decision.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF
 
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My post wasn't CYA'ing anything, simply trying to take the gender out of both situations and see other considerations in case anything could've been misconstrued. As a species we are great at many things but terrible at communicating. In the later case, yes, there are many folks in engineering slots who shouldn't be in them because they have no interest in engineering. Those folks want a secretary's job at an engineer's salary, not a profession requiring regular & difficult work. In the former, yes, guys hear the same nonsense about family too. My wife and I were almost thirty before living together, which we did for six(?) years before getting married and are still considering kids. I've heard my fair share about things which are nobody's business, and having worked with many senior engineers who "coasted" the last decade prior to retirement I don't agree with giving anyone preference on layoffs, income, or otherwise unless its deserved by current merit.
 
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