Tick, while it's easy to assume sexism was a factor in that young scientists experience (and it may well have been) based on what you said it's hard to be sure.
If we want to trade anecdotes of crummy treatment of fresh grads etc. on their initial interviews by mega corporations then I've got at least one to tell that presumably had nothing to do with sexism - although the HR person that treated me badly was female so who knows.
Likewise it's easy to put down to sexism what could be explained by what I suppose would be 'ageism'. Have an anecdote on that one I could share but I'm not sure how helpful it would be.
Then as to the racism mentioned earlier I could give a few anecdotes of a person I know who is from a certain ethnic minority but could pass for white who has been turned down for jobs for what appears to be reasons of not being the right ethnicity. Again though, hard to be entirely sure in most cases and not directly relevant to females in engineering.
One anecdote I will share that hopefully points out not all male engineers are sexist French showers, one of our young engineers was a new dad and was talking for some reason about what his daughter might want to be when she grew up and the idea of being something like a mechanic or similar came up. He was strongly opposed to the idea - as far as we could tell due to gender issues not because it was too low paying or something - and so I think pretty much every other male engineer present immediately jumped on him for it.
What's infuriating (to me) is that it seems men in Silicon Valley are often hired merely on the basis of adequate body temperature. Here was a woman with perfectly good entry-level credentials being ushered to the kitchen.
I'm having a hard time accepting that as anything other than a gross outlier. My work experience in Silicon Valley is admittedly dated, but we had lots of women in engineering roles, and during the "warm body" phases, gender was never even a consideration. I've mentioned my smelly coworker a few times before, but surely, if we could have found a qualified non-smelly, designer, we would have, gender or not. And certainly, while there's still a lack of women in engineering roles, most companies Facebook and Google are extremely neutral about hiring, particularly since that woman could probably have sued the company for at least several years of salary, if only for emotional abuse and distress.
Ageism, on the other hand, might be more real, given that the average age of a Facebook engineer is probably around 25, and on my visits to the campus, the older folks tend to be like me, parents visiting their kids at work (and mooching a meal).
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
Actually it's not uncommon to have male engineers that won't look other people in the eye. Many also have wimpy handshakes. So for complaints like that, it maybe a perception issue.
I've even heard, but mostly from software types, that some don't take showers, and may even live in their offices, or cubes. Sort of lack of personal hygiene thing.
I've also heard complaints by field people who don't like female engineers because there is some perception that there is a need to act or talk differently. This maybe a social thing that we (at least I) can't help. There may also be other factors also.
cranky108 - "Actually it's not uncommon to have male engineers that won't look other people in the eye. Many also have wimpy handshakes. So for complaints like that, it maybe a perception issue."
SLTA - "(And they <the men> weren't just shy nerds - they were introducing themselves around like mad to each other.)"
Implies they were acting differently to the ladies than with each other cranky.
There's always room for perception bias, seeing discrimination where there is none (I've been accused of racial discrimination where there honestly wasn't any - not saying I don't have a racist bone just saying in the situation I was accused of it there was none).
Also acting as if you're being discriminated against can induce different behavior toward you i.e. self fulfilling prophecy.
However, if SLTA says she sees quite a bit of discrimination, then I'm guessing there must be at least some fire in the smoke.
I at least don't go the IEEE meetings to meet new people. But to interact with people I already know, but that I don't see that much. Social hour does not mean I need to meet everyone. And in fact I don't enjoy talking to professors from the local university.
"I've even heard, but mostly from software types, that some don't take showers, and may even live in their offices, or cubes. Sort of lack of personal hygiene thing."
Now we're slamming software engineers with stereotypes? Even my stinky coworker would start the day fairly odorless, so I'm pretty sure it was a body chemistry thing. The one person I ever remembering smelling a bit ripe at the start of the day was actually our department secretary; it must have been one of the hygiene things for her. The only man that I ever saw living at work was actually due his wife having an affair with another coworker and divorcing him, so he slept in the women's bathroom, since they all used to have those nice comfy couches, back in the day. Now, one of my schoolmates in high school and college did have the thick glasses, dandruff, and holey t-shirt, but he was the one outlier out of several hundred CompSci students, so more of a rarity than a stereotype.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
1- instance of bias or exclusion observed
2- reasonably explained/presented to others anecdotally
3- people who weren't there try to explain that it probably wasn't at all like the person thought
And thus it keeps getting swept under the rug ad infinitum.
It's funny how you never hear about more men needing to become nurses. I'm not against anything but it's interesting it's always about women in the media.
Because as men, we're winning right now. You don't really need 'help' getting employment opportunities when you're already "on top". Nothing, afaik, is STOPPING men from becoming nurses. The couple friends that took that route had no trouble and never mentioned any barriers.
The goal is the removal of unjust barriers so that (ideally) the only issue is what someone chooses to become, within their abilities.
edit-to-add:
The EXISTENCE of a gender gap is not PROOF of unjust barriers. The existence of a huge gender gap, coupled with institutionalized sexism, widespread corporate misogyny, and a not-too-long-ago deliberate oppression of women IS, however, a mounting pile of evidence showing that there are barriers for women to succeed based upon the same criteria men can succeed.
Oh, and of course, the uphill battle of fighting the denial and scoffing of people who just don't want to admit there are problems.
I'm not exactly in denial that there is a problem, but I also don't think all of the issues brought up are proof of what the exact problem is.
I also would like to point out that I work with more female engineers than I do male admin assistants. So is that proof of anything? I would like to know what the real barriers are, not the stories of men who are don't want to be social.
And as another thing, I do have coworkers that I would not want to introduce anyone to, as they have less social skills than I do.
This thread has been going on for a while and there were numerous studies linked regarding the differences that exist, where they exist, and how environment can influence the development of young people before they have even started a professional life.
It has nothing to do with a firm handshake or looking someone in the eyes. At all.
Engineering is a vague word. When a male engineer falls in love with a female engineer, a small baby will be born. Nowadays it is not as clear as that, because there are other possibilities…Women and men should be equal as engineers or in any other profession, maybe women are even more intelligent than men
"When a male engineer falls in love with a female engineer, a small baby will be born."
neither necessary nor sufficient for the outcome to occur ;-)
"Why in the world would an engineer want to fall in love with another engineer"
There's a certain level of intimacy that will always not be there if your SO is either not an engineer or not familiar with engineering; we almost never talk about my work at home, even though we do talk about her work. Even the mere mention of engineering results in a glazed eye look.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
I don't know cranky, being able to talk cranes and cofferdams with my wife is amazing. That said, we have about the perfect blend of overlapping worlds (construction) but different expertise (structural vs environmental) -- so not much risk of trying to solve the other's problems.
