Compositepro
Chemical
I'm not a woman, and this topic is not of great interest to me, but this blog was quite interesting:
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Women in Engineering. 61
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moltenmetal
Chemical
JNieman:
1) Men negotiate harder and get more pay raises: in normative terms, this is correct, and this fact explains a significant fraction of the pay inequality between men and women at the professional level. The squeaky wheel gets the grease- so it has always been. And when the job itself entails some negotiation with clients etc., the tendency to negotiate rather than to accept and accommodate can actually be worth money to the firm. In a job where the ability to work on a team is the predominant need, that same male normative tendency can be a detriment that can cost the firm money in lost productivity.
I hope you're not arguing that women should be hired because they're cheaper?! They absolutely shouldn't be- and firms have to find ways to work against the tendency to let that kind of compensation inequality slip in over time.
2) Men are indeed more likely to job-hop than women are- to a statistically significant extent. Similarly, women are, to a high level of statistical certainty, significantly more likely to take time off for parental leave, and in a labour market where that's 1 year per child, that's not an insubstantial consideration. But a job hop is more disruptive to a business than a mat leave by far. So, on balance, where does that leave a business.
In our business we find that variation in abilities amongst candidates far outweighs anything such as the above which can be correlated with gender, as a means of selection for engineers. This bears out in our observations of on the job performance post hire. But this assumes you have an opportunity to observe their performance on the job to permit those conclusions to be drawn accurately before hiring. Otherwise, do the best that you can with interviews and it's still a crap shoot- and LOTS of factors not even remotely related to actual job performance can get in the way and bias the result of the selection.
1) Men negotiate harder and get more pay raises: in normative terms, this is correct, and this fact explains a significant fraction of the pay inequality between men and women at the professional level. The squeaky wheel gets the grease- so it has always been. And when the job itself entails some negotiation with clients etc., the tendency to negotiate rather than to accept and accommodate can actually be worth money to the firm. In a job where the ability to work on a team is the predominant need, that same male normative tendency can be a detriment that can cost the firm money in lost productivity.
I hope you're not arguing that women should be hired because they're cheaper?! They absolutely shouldn't be- and firms have to find ways to work against the tendency to let that kind of compensation inequality slip in over time.
2) Men are indeed more likely to job-hop than women are- to a statistically significant extent. Similarly, women are, to a high level of statistical certainty, significantly more likely to take time off for parental leave, and in a labour market where that's 1 year per child, that's not an insubstantial consideration. But a job hop is more disruptive to a business than a mat leave by far. So, on balance, where does that leave a business.
In our business we find that variation in abilities amongst candidates far outweighs anything such as the above which can be correlated with gender, as a means of selection for engineers. This bears out in our observations of on the job performance post hire. But this assumes you have an opportunity to observe their performance on the job to permit those conclusions to be drawn accurately before hiring. Otherwise, do the best that you can with interviews and it's still a crap shoot- and LOTS of factors not even remotely related to actual job performance can get in the way and bias the result of the selection.
I apologize to anyone that thinks I implied value to hiring women because of wage discrepancy. That was entirely sarcastic of me and I forgot how easy it is to misread intentions like that. I'll take the weasel route and blame the early morning post-Independence celebrations 
"
At best, it seems a wash, compared to men being so much more likely to job hop.
Plus, increasingly fewer people are procreating in my country. Note, this doesn't mean we're having fewer children (didn't check), just that more are having none.
So once again... I really don't see any reason why women should be seen as baby factories, or that they should at all be "considered" for potential birthing issues. It seems the potential negatives FAR outweigh any positive gain in "considering" their parental possibles.
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pewsocialtrends.org said:
At best, it seems a wash, compared to men being so much more likely to job hop.
Plus, increasingly fewer people are procreating in my country. Note, this doesn't mean we're having fewer children (didn't check), just that more are having none.
US Census Bureau said:
So once again... I really don't see any reason why women should be seen as baby factories, or that they should at all be "considered" for potential birthing issues. It seems the potential negatives FAR outweigh any positive gain in "considering" their parental possibles.
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Panther140
Civil/Environmental
It is reacted to as if that is not a worthy endeavor and that it is wrong to think reproducing is a major role that females play.
That was a very interesting term that was brought up earlier in this thread "baby factories". Way to degrade the self-worth of women that want to prioritize having babies. Its pretty arrogant to imply that being dedicated to your profession of engineering is a higher aspiration than being a so called "baby factory".
Its not bleak for female engineers: Women DO go into engineering. Women DO work in it every day. Women ARE encouraged to do it. Women ARE becoming more prevalent in it.
Women are not the only ones who have gender roles: Why is the ratio so male-biased? Because males love engineering. Males seek out engineering at a high rate and males are also discouraged from doing a lot of other things. Go back and try to recall the last time somebody told you that you should be a nurse or an elementary school teacher. Engineering is the holy grail of what many boys want to become, and it aligns with their interests very well.
Patterns of interest: Males and females have biological differences. You know how females tend to enjoy the company of males, and males tend to enjoy the company of females? How long is it before that too is considered an oppressive societal construct? That is NOT the only thing that differs when it comes to what brings them joy.
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
That was a very interesting term that was brought up earlier in this thread "baby factories". Way to degrade the self-worth of women that want to prioritize having babies. Its pretty arrogant to imply that being dedicated to your profession of engineering is a higher aspiration than being a so called "baby factory".
Its not bleak for female engineers: Women DO go into engineering. Women DO work in it every day. Women ARE encouraged to do it. Women ARE becoming more prevalent in it.
Women are not the only ones who have gender roles: Why is the ratio so male-biased? Because males love engineering. Males seek out engineering at a high rate and males are also discouraged from doing a lot of other things. Go back and try to recall the last time somebody told you that you should be a nurse or an elementary school teacher. Engineering is the holy grail of what many boys want to become, and it aligns with their interests very well.
Patterns of interest: Males and females have biological differences. You know how females tend to enjoy the company of males, and males tend to enjoy the company of females? How long is it before that too is considered an oppressive societal construct? That is NOT the only thing that differs when it comes to what brings them joy.
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
Panther140
Civil/Environmental
The problem is?: Lets say the male:female ratio never changes, no matter what we do. Lets say females always pursue engineering at a lower rate than males do. The females that want to go into engineering do, they are treated respectfully at work, and their employment rates are the same as males in the field. What is wrong with that? Why is that unacceptable? If that were the reality, would there be a group of people that never admit it or even realize it?
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
To clarify: The term "baby factory" was meant to be crude and offensive. It was used to address those who would forbid someone a career opportunity because of their potential to bear children. Such people /are/ arrogant and degrading to the worth of women. I do not believe such things - I address those who do with my refutations.
However, if you choose to believe that engineering fields are not bleak for women, your head is planted firmly in... the sand. Some fields are better than others but there is still a very significant culture of bias.
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However, if you choose to believe that engineering fields are not bleak for women, your head is planted firmly in... the sand. Some fields are better than others but there is still a very significant culture of bias.
_________________________________________
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Panther140, have you read the results of the study I posted way above? Lots of women want to be engineers and are shut out of it by the culture, among other things. A 50:50 ratio is not the goal; allowing all women who want to without dealing with crappy attitudes, less pay, etc, is. Surely more than 13% of women are interested in engineering, and honestly, it's attitudes like yours that make us SO. BLASTED. TIRED.
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SLTA, I just skimmed the first few pages (including executive summary) of the report you linked and it is indeed the same one you posted previously when this topic came up.
Still strikes me that most of the reasons given for leaving/not joining engineering field apply to men as well for instance:
[ul]
[li]Too much travel[/li]
[li]Too long hours[/li]
[li]Limited promotion potential[/li]
[li]Low pay (compared to comparable careers)[/li]
[li]Not enough training opportunities[/li]
[/ul]
So where's the disconnect where you see large scale outright discrimination and I don't?
There were certainly some anecdotes of overt sexism given (as well as the opposite) but I didn't see a significant statistical metric that addressed this - please direct me to it if applicable.
Certainly some of the points about work-life balance appeared to imply that women still take a larger role in child care etc. and so needed more flexibility. Is this truly unique to engineering though as compared to comparable fields?
I'm not trying to be a jerk here genuinely trying to understand the discrepancy between our perceptions. Perhaps it boils down to needing to walk a mile in your steel toed work boots - but unless you're a 10.5 (mens) wide that aint gonna work out.
Still strikes me that most of the reasons given for leaving/not joining engineering field apply to men as well for instance:
[ul]
[li]Too much travel[/li]
[li]Too long hours[/li]
[li]Limited promotion potential[/li]
[li]Low pay (compared to comparable careers)[/li]
[li]Not enough training opportunities[/li]
[/ul]
So where's the disconnect where you see large scale outright discrimination and I don't?
There were certainly some anecdotes of overt sexism given (as well as the opposite) but I didn't see a significant statistical metric that addressed this - please direct me to it if applicable.
Certainly some of the points about work-life balance appeared to imply that women still take a larger role in child care etc. and so needed more flexibility. Is this truly unique to engineering though as compared to comparable fields?
I'm not trying to be a jerk here genuinely trying to understand the discrepancy between our perceptions. Perhaps it boils down to needing to walk a mile in your steel toed work boots - but unless you're a 10.5 (mens) wide that aint gonna work out.
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I would imagine that SLTA is also referring to the 8 years, or even earlier, before getting an engineering degree. It's at this phase that many women turn away from engineering/science, because of various pressures, attitudes, etc.
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IRstuff, the report at least partially addresses that as well.
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Kenat,
Your most recent post caused me to go back and take another look at that document which SLTA linked to. On one of the first few pages is something which I found interesting:
Why did the women not enter an engineering career? The top five reasons women reported for deciding not to enter engineering were:
[ol 1]
[li]They were not interested in engineering,[/li]
[li]didn’t like the engineering culture,[/li]
[li]had always planned to go into another field,[/li]
[li]did not find the career flexible enough,[/li]
[li]or wanted to start their own business.[/li]
[/ol]
These reasons did not differ significantly across different age groups or years of graduation.
Item 2 is disappointing to see. I wonder how much of that is due to the attitude of male engineer colleagues, and how much is due to the attitude from male-dominated skilled trades? I've rarely seen male engineers treat female colleagues as anything other than equals, but I can see why a female would feel uncomfortable among a large group of tradesmen where a pack mentality and schoolyard humour dominates. I have to deal with them too, but at least I don't have sexist bullying to deal with on top of all their other crap.
Items 1 and 3 intrigue me. When I did my degree a few years ago![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
engineering in the UK was in a death spiral. It was relatively easy to get on an engineering course, but they had massive dropout rates. Every one of us who finished did so because we worked bloody hard: every boy, every girl - no exceptions. I'm surprised that a large (according to the study) number of females choose to study a demanding and difficult subject without any intention of ever entering the profession. Why is that?
Is it so surprising that there's a relatively small number of practicing female engineers when many who studied the subject never intended to enter the profession even at the outset? Contrast that with the majority of male engineers I have worked with: most of us studied engineering because we never really wanted to do anything else, and some of us are lucky enough to make a decent living at doing something we'd probably do for enjoyment. Do females just look at it differently?
Your most recent post caused me to go back and take another look at that document which SLTA linked to. On one of the first few pages is something which I found interesting:
Why did the women not enter an engineering career? The top five reasons women reported for deciding not to enter engineering were:
[ol 1]
[li]They were not interested in engineering,[/li]
[li]didn’t like the engineering culture,[/li]
[li]had always planned to go into another field,[/li]
[li]did not find the career flexible enough,[/li]
[li]or wanted to start their own business.[/li]
[/ol]
These reasons did not differ significantly across different age groups or years of graduation.
Item 2 is disappointing to see. I wonder how much of that is due to the attitude of male engineer colleagues, and how much is due to the attitude from male-dominated skilled trades? I've rarely seen male engineers treat female colleagues as anything other than equals, but I can see why a female would feel uncomfortable among a large group of tradesmen where a pack mentality and schoolyard humour dominates. I have to deal with them too, but at least I don't have sexist bullying to deal with on top of all their other crap.
Items 1 and 3 intrigue me. When I did my degree a few years ago
engineering in the UK was in a death spiral. It was relatively easy to get on an engineering course, but they had massive dropout rates. Every one of us who finished did so because we worked bloody hard: every boy, every girl - no exceptions. I'm surprised that a large (according to the study) number of females choose to study a demanding and difficult subject without any intention of ever entering the profession. Why is that?Is it so surprising that there's a relatively small number of practicing female engineers when many who studied the subject never intended to enter the profession even at the outset? Contrast that with the majority of male engineers I have worked with: most of us studied engineering because we never really wanted to do anything else, and some of us are lucky enough to make a decent living at doing something we'd probably do for enjoyment. Do females just look at it differently?
Scotty, while the term 'engineering culture' may include 'sexism' it wasn't clear to me that was the only thing, or even the main thing it covered.
Like I said though, I didn't read the article end to end so may have missed something.
By the time I was at uni in late 90's quite a few folks seemed to fall into 1 & 2 on my aero course at least. A bunch of us had a real passion for aero/astro nautics but a lot of folks didn't. The drop out rate amongst the ladies in the 1st year was higher than with the guys for whatever reason.
Like I said though, I didn't read the article end to end so may have missed something.
By the time I was at uni in late 90's quite a few folks seemed to fall into 1 & 2 on my aero course at least. A bunch of us had a real passion for aero/astro nautics but a lot of folks didn't. The drop out rate amongst the ladies in the 1st year was higher than with the guys for whatever reason.
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I was a few years ahead of you on Electrical & Electronic. We lost half our number by the end of year one, then a third of the survivors didn't see the end of year two. By the end of the course we had about a third of the initial intake left. All bar one of the girls who started our course stayed the duration, so exactly the opposite of what you saw.
The 'sexist' thing wasn't particularly aimed at the report, just intended as an example of where the 'engineering culture' in my industry (power, oil & gas) is especially unappealing to a female engineer in a way which male engineers don't have to tolerate. I'm not completely sure what the definition of 'engineering culture' actually is to be honest.
The 'sexist' thing wasn't particularly aimed at the report, just intended as an example of where the 'engineering culture' in my industry (power, oil & gas) is especially unappealing to a female engineer in a way which male engineers don't have to tolerate. I'm not completely sure what the definition of 'engineering culture' actually is to be honest.
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KENAT, you read one part of one question. A more accurate overview would be P. 6 and Chapter 10 on P. 57.
The gist of it is that the culture in the workplace, and the attitudes of coworkers/clients/bosses, is one of the main reasons women leave engineering.
Take half an hour and read the whole report. I've said so many times before that I can no longer even count the number of times I've had to deal with some sort of absurd crap simply because I'm a woman... It started back in middle school for me, but really showed up in high school physics class. The teacher was blatantly sexist (the Dean of Students even told him so) and he just didn't get it, at all. Until that blindness disappears, things won't change.
And maybe this isn't what's happening in this thread, but I feel a bit like I'm having to justify and defend my right to be offended and/or frustrated by the experiences I've had. Not from you, KENAT, but from some others on this thread. So, I think I'll step on back away and go for a walk instead.
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SLTA - I did get further than page 6 and it still didn't cry overt sexism.
"One-in-three women left because they did not like the workplace climate, their boss or the culture."
"Women engineers who were treated in a condescending, patronizing manner, and were belittled and undermined by their supervisors and co-workers were most likely to want to leave their organizations."
I suspect you could eliminate the gender specifics of the above sentences and they'd still run true. Certainly here when our management condescend and patronize us we get a bit tweaked. Our climate of chasing end of quarter $ to please wall street etc. gets old, as does chasing various fads and management buzz words.
Hence my previous summation of women engineers on average being less willing to take <insert euphemism for unpleasant job/work aspects> than their male counterparts.
Maybe women see more of the nonsense, but that report doesn't demonstrate that from what I can see. Most of the suggestions in chapter 10 seem fairly gender neutral too.
Sorry, probably not making you feel any better about your place amongst us misogynists.;-) Like I said, without having been in your situation maybe it's difficult to know how it feels.
"One-in-three women left because they did not like the workplace climate, their boss or the culture."
"Women engineers who were treated in a condescending, patronizing manner, and were belittled and undermined by their supervisors and co-workers were most likely to want to leave their organizations."
I suspect you could eliminate the gender specifics of the above sentences and they'd still run true. Certainly here when our management condescend and patronize us we get a bit tweaked. Our climate of chasing end of quarter $ to please wall street etc. gets old, as does chasing various fads and management buzz words.
Hence my previous summation of women engineers on average being less willing to take <insert euphemism for unpleasant job/work aspects> than their male counterparts.
Maybe women see more of the nonsense, but that report doesn't demonstrate that from what I can see. Most of the suggestions in chapter 10 seem fairly gender neutral too.
Sorry, probably not making you feel any better about your place amongst us misogynists.;-) Like I said, without having been in your situation maybe it's difficult to know how it feels.
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"the report at least partially addresses that as well."
Not really, the report is titled "WHY WOMEN LEAVE ENGINEERING," so this is only addressing why those that have engineering degrees aren't working as engineers.
""One-in-three women left because they did not like the workplace climate, their boss or the culture."
"Women engineers who were treated in a condescending, patronizing manner, and were belittled and undermined by their supervisors and co-workers were most likely to want to leave their organizations.""
There is a difference. If I have a sucky boss, I'll give the bird and leave, but I'll be going to another engineering job, because I know not all bosses are sucky that way. I would guess that the women questioned in the survey did not ever find a sufficiently non-sucky boss or co-workers to keep at it. Additionally, we know that men get sort of similar treatment, but it's not about the gender, per se, it's more likely to be a hazing ritual of sorts, or they simply hate that guy's guts for whatever reason. BUT, since they're most likely to be men, there is not a possibility of gender bias, since they're the same gender.
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Not really, the report is titled "WHY WOMEN LEAVE ENGINEERING," so this is only addressing why those that have engineering degrees aren't working as engineers.
""One-in-three women left because they did not like the workplace climate, their boss or the culture."
"Women engineers who were treated in a condescending, patronizing manner, and were belittled and undermined by their supervisors and co-workers were most likely to want to leave their organizations.""
There is a difference. If I have a sucky boss, I'll give the bird and leave, but I'll be going to another engineering job, because I know not all bosses are sucky that way. I would guess that the women questioned in the survey did not ever find a sufficiently non-sucky boss or co-workers to keep at it. Additionally, we know that men get sort of similar treatment, but it's not about the gender, per se, it's more likely to be a hazing ritual of sorts, or they simply hate that guy's guts for whatever reason. BUT, since they're most likely to be men, there is not a possibility of gender bias, since they're the same gender.
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So, male boss treats a male employee like dirt that's the way of the world. Does it to a female employee and it's gender bias?
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It's usually a different type of dirt. Coupled with the fact that men are usually full of themselves. ;-)
Even if it's the same dirt doesn't mean that the intent is the same.
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Even if it's the same dirt doesn't mean that the intent is the same.
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The article cited by the original post confirms a study that was conducted in the UK in the 1980's, as then reported by the magazine "New Scientist". The UK government wanted to determine why there weren't more women in science + engineering colleges. They found that the only women who passed the high school tests used for admission to technical colleges were girls who attended girls-only high schools. When they modified some regular high schools to have same-sex math and science classes, they found that the girl performance greatly improved and was generally better than the boys performance, as long as they separated the 2 sexes for these courses. Apparently mixing the sexes affects the concentration of developing girls such that it detracts from their math and science performance.
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moltenmetal
Chemical
KENAT: my observation matches ScottyUK's. In my batch, studying in the late '80s, female program completion rate was higher than male completion rate. Women who started the program tended to finish it. Most of the "reflux" (people failing a term) were men, as were most of the drop-outs or flunk-outs. Not exclusively, but predominately. I always attributed it to the perceived barrier to entry- the women who chose to enter the program did so against these perceived barriers and were damned if they weren't going to finish what they'd chosen to start.
My observation similarly matches ScottyUK's in relation to treatment of female engineers on the job. I've never been in a workplace where the male engineers, whether customers or colleagues, treated the female engineers with disrespect arising from their gender. There were some men, particularly older ones, who said inappropriate things or were patronizing, and they were generally put in their place- not only by the women. I'm not saying there weren't incidents that I didn't observe and am not denying the experiences of someone like SLTA who seems to live with this bullsh*t on a daily basis.
I have however, like ScottyUK, seen engineers of both sexes treated miserably by tradespeople, who are still predominately men. There are unpleasant tendencies which exhibit themselves any time the sexes are segregated, in both sexes- as my wife can attest, having worked in a female-dominated profession. Fortunately there have been enough women around in engineering during my entire career that these tendencies have been suppressed. It doesn't take a 50% mix to make them go away.
I've seen the studies which say that sex segregation in science and math education actually works- for women. I'd be open to it- as long as there is no sex segregation in other subjects. I've lived through that, going to an all boys Catholic high school, and can tell you that the unpleasant tendencies resulting from total sex segregation went well beyond being merely unpleasant.
My observation similarly matches ScottyUK's in relation to treatment of female engineers on the job. I've never been in a workplace where the male engineers, whether customers or colleagues, treated the female engineers with disrespect arising from their gender. There were some men, particularly older ones, who said inappropriate things or were patronizing, and they were generally put in their place- not only by the women. I'm not saying there weren't incidents that I didn't observe and am not denying the experiences of someone like SLTA who seems to live with this bullsh*t on a daily basis.
I have however, like ScottyUK, seen engineers of both sexes treated miserably by tradespeople, who are still predominately men. There are unpleasant tendencies which exhibit themselves any time the sexes are segregated, in both sexes- as my wife can attest, having worked in a female-dominated profession. Fortunately there have been enough women around in engineering during my entire career that these tendencies have been suppressed. It doesn't take a 50% mix to make them go away.
I've seen the studies which say that sex segregation in science and math education actually works- for women. I'd be open to it- as long as there is no sex segregation in other subjects. I've lived through that, going to an all boys Catholic high school, and can tell you that the unpleasant tendencies resulting from total sex segregation went well beyond being merely unpleasant.
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"Apparently mixing the sexes affects the concentration of developing girls such that it detracts from their math and science performance."
I hope that's unmarked sarcasm, because that's a mouthful of gender bias right there. It has been shown in studies that male or female TEACHERs in a mixed gender class will treat the males preferentially. Given that this is a public forum that is often plagiarized, it would be bad form if this got posted as confirmation of someone else's bias.
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I hope that's unmarked sarcasm, because that's a mouthful of gender bias right there. It has been shown in studies that male or female TEACHERs in a mixed gender class will treat the males preferentially. Given that this is a public forum that is often plagiarized, it would be bad form if this got posted as confirmation of someone else's bias.
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